nellie v lloyds hardship claim

[nelliewops]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to the site, but am a fully paid up member of Cag, so not a total novice!

Just a bit of background info -

A couple of years ago OH and I had a few financial problems and almost had our house repossessed, as a result of which OH took an overdose of painkillers. Once recovered he decided to quit his well paid but stressful job and became self-employed.

This year we have decided to finally take our heads out of the sand and get our finances in order, so earlier in the year we sent off for our Subject Access Requests to Lloyds TSB among others.

We have an overdraft with LTSB of approx £4500 (about £800 over it's limit), but with charges amounting to almost £10,000 (before interest is added).

We also have a couple of loans with LTSB, with Single Premium PPI which we have put in mis-selling claims for (for various reasons - another story, LOL!)

As a result of the recession and OH becoming self employed, we have been unable to meet our committments with LTSB and have fallen behind with payments on the loans. As OH's income is vastly reduced we have not been paying any money into our current account either. In the last 12 months charges have been added to the tune of £1000+.

We have arrears on our gas and electricity account (£2000+) (which we realise many banks are taking into account) as well as various other non-priority debts.

We have asked LTSB to consider our request for refund of charges on the grounds of hardship re: the FSA waiver, but although they passed our account to Consumer Debt Recovery (set up specifically to deal with customers in financial hardship - they say) and have now closed our account, they have stated that we are not in hardship and that recovery action will continue. We have sent umpteen letters to LTSB about this and have had over 20 back with standard template responses, including letters from SCM, DCAs and Enforcement Notices.

I personally am at the end of my tether and fear for OH's sanity (and my own!).

Taking into account the PPI on current loans and old settled loans as well as the actual charges, LTSB actually owe us approximately £10,000 more than we owe them!

I can't believe that Lloyds is chosing to ignore our obviously very vulnerable state and just turning the screw even more.

Any advice on how I should proceed would be welcomed, thank you!

Apologies for the excessively long post.

Nellie xxx

[WendyB]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi and welcome to Beagles.

lloyds can be a tough nut to crack with hardship but it has been done.

Have you any mortgage/rent/council tax arrears, these are priority debts, as are utilities, and LTSB should treat them as such. Did they say why they considered you weren't a hardhsip case?

Best thing to do is complete the I&E form and post it up on here. Also list all you debts etc so that we can get an idea of how best to help. If you don't want to post it up on the open forum then email it to a Team member.

When you say you have had letters from DCAs etc, this is nothing to do with your hardship case, in fact if your accounts are in dispute they shouldn't be carrying on with collection activities anyway, according to OFT 664 debt collection guidelines. But that can be dealt with as a separate issue, first thing is to get the debts etc listed up and see if we can make a case for hardship. If that fails then you have recourse to FOS.

Post up as much background info as you can (or email to Team) and we'l see what can be done.

Wendy x

[enaid]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi nellie and welcome to Beagles.
Here is a link for the I&E form Wendy mentioned Legal Beagles you can pm it to any team member if you wish and it will be looked at for you.
Also where are you at with your PPI claims?
Have you ever tried to claim on them at all ?

[TUTTSI]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi Nellie

Firstly, a very warm welcome to Legal Beagles. Lets see what we can do to help you.

Here is a hardship Lloyds thread you may want to read, just to give you an indication of how Lloyds are difficult but eventually they paid out.
http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=10358

Are you claiming on a business account or a personal account?

The main thing with claiming under the FSA waiver hardship rules is to nicely package everything together in one hit.

The I & E in your case should be on a joint basis, evidences of hardship and the written reasons why you fell into this situation, ie illness, lost job, change in circumstances etc and of course why you feel you qualiy and definately come under the FSA waiver hardship rules.

The main evidences are normally if you are behind with either your rent or Mortgage and the mortgage company have issued you with repossession or a suspended order. If you are behind with utlities, statements or letters from them showing this as being in arrears. Also, other evidences of any claims that are in court against you from creditors or and letters chasing you for arrears.

Tuttsi

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi WendyB, enaid and TUTTSI,

Thank you very much for your warm welcome and your helpful responses!

I will post up some further info in answer to your questions, then later on I will have a look at the I&E form you gave a link to and get that filled out etc.

1) WendyB -

We don't have any mortgage or rent arrears.

We have twice received a summons for non-payment of a monthly instalment of council tax in the last few months (the most recent being in March 2009) but fortunately thanks to my parents helping us out we were able to pay this before it went to court - with added costs of course.

The priority debt arrears we have is for Gas and Electricity. It amounts to over £2000. We have received (in the last few days) a letter from the suppliers Collection Agency demanding the full amount or we will have a debt collector call to collect the full amount, disconnection, legal action etc. The letter was dated 8 days before we received it and the date to rectify had passed by the time it was received.

We have other non-priority debt arrears of approximately £15000 on two loans also with LTSB, which both have Single Premium PPI attached.

Additionally we have two non-priority credit card debts totalling approximately £9000 with MBNA. We have had the charges refunded on one of these. They also have PPI attached. We have forwarded the claim for mis-sold PPI on one card to the FOS.

We have had two Enforcement Notices from LTSB since starting to reclaim our charges and letters also from SCM (LTSB's solicitors) formally demanding the full balance owed on our overdraft. In the last week we have had two letters from a DCA also asking for full payment of the overdraft.

Despite sending Lloyds (and SCM etc) several letters reminding them the account is in dispute because of the charges claim, they told us at the beginning of June that recovery action will now continue.

2) enaid -

We have Single Premium PPI on both the current loans we have with LTSB (one loan each for OH and I).

LTSB are still looking into our claim for mis-selling and have been since Feb 2009.

We also have some old loans with LTSB which were repaid some time ago, both jointly and individually. We are in the process of reclaiming the mis-sold PPI on these also, although these are in the early stages.

3) TUTTSI -

This is a personal account, not business which we are claiming on.

The reasons we fell into financial hardship are complex -

It started back in 2006 - OH changed jobs and thus incurred a salary drop which was unforeseen at the time as a result of which he used credit cards to pay bills etc, which in turn racked up more charges than we were already incurring with the bank. This led to us having to take out a second mortgage, with a sub-prime lender. Our two mortgages cost in excess of £2000 per month to repay and coupled with all the other bills and outgoings we couldn't cope. LTSB didn't help the situation by convincing us to take out every product they had going from buildings and contents insurance to PPI to life insurance (as well as our original mortgage which was with C&G).

When we fell behind with the sub-prime mortgage they quickly issued a summons for repossession which we narrowly avoided by borrowing enough to repay the arrears from our families.

However, the strain was too much for OH who took an overdose of painkillers.

When he had recovered we decided to sell the house pay off the mortgages and that he would give up his stressful job to run an online business from home. The settlement figure on the sub-prime mortgage was £10,000 higher than we had believed due to their charges (which we are also trying to reclaim) so we were unable to pay off all our debts as we had hoped, although we did pay off everything except the two LTSB loans and two credit cards. The recession has meant that OH's business hasn't taken off as we had hoped and LTSB have added a further £1000+ to our account in the last 12 months.

We have sent LTSB letters as well as our own I&E - they didn't provide one - and proof of our priority utility debt arrears. We also sent OH's tax return and proof of income. Our outgoings (without taking into account minimum payments on any non-priority debts) are approximately £400 per month more than our income. We did not send LTSB proof of other non-priority debts or that we have DCAs chasing these also.

I should add, we have one child - but he is at university - unfortunately we cannot afford to support him at all which I am very ashamed about.

I am so very sorry for the incredibly long post, but I just wanted to try to give as much background info as I could!

If you need to know anything else, please ask.

Thank you all again for your helpful advice,

Nellie xxx

[natweststaffmember]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Nellie, hmmm, I think its time we actually kicked off.
Freedom of Information: Right to know requestThe FSA Waiver on bank charges states: part 13.18. A gentle reminder. Furthermore, fill in an income and expenditure form linked above, then photocopy the letter re debt collectors and disconnection with amount on if possible and ask them to relook at your financial hardship case and remind them that the debt remains in dispute so any debt recovery action will be treated as a breach of the FSA Waiver and a complaint will be sent to them on EVERY OCCASION. Once the OFT test case issues are resolved then you will make an arrangement with them based on that outcome and that outcome alone.

"the firm must not close accounts or threaten closure of accounts of customers when it might reasonably appear that this is for the purpose (or with the intent) of penalising customers that have complained about unauthorised overdraft charges for having complained, or deterring future complaints from these customers or others. For the avoidance of doubt, the firm may close accounts or threaten to close accounts where there is good justification for doing so based on the circumstances of the particular case;"
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
I'd also ring them and hassle them, talk to them about the stress of disconnection will have on your family, and the pain and misery it is causing(once you can reasonable assume that they have received the request).

EDIT: and a Warm Welcome to Legal Beagles.

[WendyB]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Are you going to claim the charges back on the other credit card? If not, why not? Credit card charges are usually fairly straightforward 9as you probably know as you've done one already) and might be a bit of a quick fix, even if only to reduce your outstanding balance.

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi WendyB, enaid and TUTTSI,

Thank you very much for your warm welcome and your helpful responses!

I will post up some further info in answer to your questions, then later on I will have a look at the I&E form you gave a link to and get that filled out etc.

1) WendyB -

We don't have any mortgage or rent arrears.

We have twice received a summons for non-payment of a monthly instalment of council tax in the last few months (the most recent being in March 2009) but fortunately thanks to my parents helping us out we were able to pay this before it went to court - with added costs of course.

The priority debt arrears we have is for Gas and Electricity. It amounts to over £2000. We have received (in the last few days) a letter from the suppliers Collection Agency demanding the full amount or we will have a debt collector call to collect the full amount, disconnection, legal action etc. The letter was dated 8 days before we received it and the date to rectify had passed by the time it was received.

We have other non-priority debt arrears of approximately £15000 on two loans also with LTSB, which both have Single Premium PPI attached.

Additionally we have two non-priority credit card debts totalling approximately £9000 with MBNA. We have had the charges refunded on one of these. They also have PPI attached. We have forwarded the claim for mis-sold PPI on one card to the FOS.

We have had two Enforcement Notices from LTSB since starting to reclaim our charges and letters also from SCM (LTSB's solicitors) formally demanding the full balance owed on our overdraft. In the last week we have had two letters from a DCA also asking for full payment of the overdraft.

Despite sending Lloyds (and SCM etc) several letters reminding them the account is in dispute because of the charges claim, they told us at the beginning of June that recovery action will now continue.

2) enaid -

We have Single Premium PPI on both the current loans we have with LTSB (one loan each for OH and I).

LTSB are still looking into our claim for mis-selling and have been since Feb 2009.

We also have some old loans with LTSB which were repaid some time ago, both jointly and individually. We are in the process of reclaiming the mis-sold PPI on these also, although these are in the early stages.

3) TUTTSI -

This is a personal account, not business which we are claiming on.

The reasons we fell into financial hardship are complex -

It started back in 2006 - OH changed jobs and thus incurred a salary drop which was unforeseen at the time as a result of which he used credit cards to pay bills etc, which in turn racked up more charges than we were already incurring with the bank. This led to us having to take out a second mortgage, with a sub-prime lender. Our two mortgages cost in excess of £2000 per month to repay and coupled with all the other bills and outgoings we couldn't cope. LTSB didn't help the situation by convincing us to take out every product they had going from buildings and contents insurance to PPI to life insurance (as well as our original mortgage which was with C&G).

When we fell behind with the sub-prime mortgage they quickly issued a summons for repossession which we narrowly avoided by borrowing enough to repay the arrears from our families.

However, the strain was too much for OH who took an overdose of painkillers.

When he had recovered we decided to sell the house pay off the mortgages and that he would give up his stressful job to run an online business from home. The settlement figure on the sub-prime mortgage was £10,000 higher than we had believed due to their charges (which we are also trying to reclaim) so we were unable to pay off all our debts as we had hoped, although we did pay off everything except the two LTSB loans and two credit cards. The recession has meant that OH's business hasn't taken off as we had hoped and LTSB have added a further £1000+ to our account in the last 12 months.

We have sent LTSB letters as well as our own I&E - they didn't provide one - and proof of our priority utility debt arrears. We also sent OH's tax return and proof of income. Our outgoings (without taking into account minimum payments on any non-priority debts) are approximately £400 per month more than our income. We did not send LTSB proof of other non-priority debts or that we have DCAs chasing these also.



I am so very sorry for the incredibly long post, but I just wanted to try to give as much background info as I could!

If you need to know anything else, please ask.
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Hi Wendy,

Apologies for last post being a duplicate of the previous one - for some strange reason it wouldn't let me post something new - my old message was still in the box???

Anyway, yes we will be putting in a claim for the charges on the other card - trouble is both cards still have balances owed on them and we cannot afford to make any payments at the moment. Although we have received charges back on the first card I am worried that at some point in the not too distant future they will take OH to court and as they are both with the same company I suppose I'm just scared to ruffle their feathers! It seems to good to be true that they have paid up on one card and yet haven't pursued him for the balance owed......both cards are with DCAs so I'm not really sure who would end up taking him to court either?

Sorry I haven't got round to doing the I&E yet as I've been working on a complaint letter to the FSA re:Lloyds this evening!

Thanks again for your help,

Nellie xxx

[WendyB]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

well realy you need to get the cards returned to the OCs. If you know how much the charges are, start a claim, if not, send SAR to get your info. This will give dtails of your PPI as well so you could start a caim for that too. What is the amount of charges, and the balance owing?

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Nellie, hmmm, I think its time we actually kicked off.
Freedom of Information: Right to know requestThe FSA Waiver on bank charges states: part 13.18. A gentle reminder. Furthermore, fill in an income and expenditure form linked above, then photocopy the letter re debt collectors and disconnection with amount on if possible and ask them to relook at your financial hardship case and remind them that the debt remains in dispute so any debt recovery action will be treated as a breach of the FSA Waiver and a complaint will be sent to them on EVERY OCCASION. Once the OFT test case issues are resolved then you will make an arrangement with them based on that outcome and that outcome alone.

"the firm must not close accounts or threaten closure of accounts of customers when it might reasonably appear that this is for the purpose (or with the intent) of penalising customers that have complained about unauthorised overdraft charges for having complained, or deterring future complaints from these customers or others. For the avoidance of doubt, the firm may close accounts or threaten to close accounts where there is good justification for doing so based on the circumstances of the particular case;"
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
I'd also ring them and hassle them, talk to them about the stress of disconnection will have on your family, and the pain and misery it is causing(once you can reasonable assume that they have received the request).

EDIT: and a Warm Welcome to Legal Beagles.

Hi Nattie,

Thank you for the advice - we have already spoken on Cag (diff user name though!)

I have today sent off a further letter as you suggested and am also working on one to FSA. Your help is most appreciated as always, btw.

Nellie x

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

An update - have today sent off a complaint to the FSA regarding LTSB's breach of the Waiver in the way they have dealt with our hardship claim.

[Amethyst]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

if you can let us know the response (probably completely generic letter but never know your luck lol) would be great.

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

if you can let us know the response (probably completely generic letter but never know your luck lol) would be great.

Hi Amethyst,

The letter was received by the FSA Waivers Team on 23rd June, but as yet I've not heard anything back from them. I believe they don't look into individual cases, so maybe I won't get a response at all? It's just nice to know I've reported LTSB though!

Nellie xxx

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi Guys,

I meant to add that we tried calling LTSB's Andover office about our hardship claim and were told that Andover don't deal with hardship claims, but that we need to speak to Brighton (who I thought were Collections???).

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you,

Nellie xxx

[nelliewops]

Re: nellie v lloyds hardship claim

Hi there,

Today I received a response from the FSA to two letters I sent them - one complaint about LTSB's breaches of the Hardship Waiver and another about some PPI issues we also have with LTSB (ie, totally ignoring our letters in one case and refusing to investigate another).

Firstly they thank me for taking the time to prepare and send my concerns.

The FSA state that they have passed my complaint about LTSB's breaches of the Waiver to the department responsible for granting waivers and monitoring firms' compliance with the Waiver. They state that the information will be considered from a regulatory point of view only and not with any view to resolving my complaint.

With regards to the PPI issues they have passed information about our complaints to the department which supervises LTSB because 'the issues you have raised may indicate wider concerns about the firm's ability to meet our standards.'

They remind me of the need to report my concerns to the FOS, which of course I have done - whether it will do any good is another matter! I am pleased, however, that the FSA have acknowledged my letters.

Nellie xxx