Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

[haradoka]

My father has huge Council Tax debts which apparently go back many years.

When I ask him how this situation has arisen, he denies that he has any debts. He says he has "treated" the council to payments (not the amounts demanded, but what he considers appropriate), which he has stated as being "full and final" and "not offers". Because he has (allegedly) received receipts for these payments, he believes that he has fulfilled his obligations, and therefore has no debt.

Can anyone tell me whether there is any legal validity for this position, or is he just deluded?

Thanks

[Caspar]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

There is an argument under Common Law for not paying Council Tax, but it does not sound as though your father is using this tack to me. I suspect things will catch up with him in time.

[haradoka]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

There is an argument under Common Law for not paying Council Tax, but it does not sound as though your father is using this tack to me. I suspect things will catch up with him in time.

I agree.
He is unwilling to discuss his affairs with me, other than to insist that he is right. I first thought that he was using an interpretation of contract law (invitation to treat) as a basis for his stance, but taxation is not open to that.
Then I wondered whether there were an obscure aspect of some archaic law that he might be using.
I really don't know.
That said, what is the argument under Common Law for not paying Council Tax?

[Caspar]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

Basically what they argue is Council Tax is NOT a law, it's a Statute and as such requires your consent. If it receives your consent at that point it becomes law.

They then claim you can negotiate a CT bill to see what is being offered, at what rate it's being offered etc.... and you can lawfully (not legally) have this negotiation with them, as if you haven't given consent, you are not negotiating a law, but a contract to supply.

Finally they will say you cannot be prosecuted by any court for non-payment since the CTax is a contract which is only law if you've consented to it. If you don't consent to it, then you exercise your lawful (not legal) right to decline it. Therefore no contract exists.

Finally they will say that any letter is not to you, but to your legal fiction (I'm not going into details of that again), and a summons is purely an invitation to their place of business.

In very crude terms I suspect this is what your dad is saying, but he will find he is sadly flawed in his arguments and will end up in a lot of trouble. Common law is a VAST subject and should not be dabbled into lightly by those with only limited knowledge.

Put it this way. I'm not an expert in Common Law - I have a serious interest in it, though do not use it. If I were given the chance to speak to your dad I bet I could tie him in knots within a minute or two.

I would strongly advise him to forget the mumbo jumbo, much as he will deny it is mumbo jumbo, and pay his taxes.

The whole take on this would be very different and your dad would have more credence if he has formally become a Freeman of the Land. Ask him, and if he answers yes, ask him how he did it!

[WendyB]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

To be quite frank, I wouldn't even bother going down the Common Law trail, as has been said, it's a minefield. and going that route will only confuse the issue. And notwithstanding all that, and all the stuff posted above, it obviously doesn't work very well otherwise people wouldn't get sent to jail for non-payment of Council Tax, would they?? Which they most certainly do, I have seen many reports of people being jailed for non-payment.

What stage are these debts at?What action have the Council taken so far?

Not wishing to be disrespectful, but does your dad have all his marbles? Because if he has, then I fear that you may just have to let him get on with it and take the consequences. Unless you or someone else just pay it for him in which case the problem will go away.

[Caspar]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

I couldn't agree more with you Wendy, and I speak as someone who has at least a genuine interest in the subject.

OP - your dad may claim he's watched videos etc.... and read about it on the internet. The vast majority of these sites are extremely misleading.

[haradoka]

Re: Council Tax

Thanks for your comments. From what you say I am inclined to think that my father is indeed relying on Common Law for his "defence". However, he would not have learned about this other than through pure study. He has no TV and has never used a computer.
He is in his eighties with confirmed psychiatric issues and has recently been admitted to a care home. I am hoping that this might mitigate any future judgements against him. I have only recently learned of his debts, and am doing my best to help him sort things out, but he sees my intervention as interference. He has an imminent county court case at which an interim charging order will probably be made absolute, but he will not attend as he considers it "below" him and wants his case heard in the High Court. I doubt that will ever happen, and the charging order(s) will come into effect when his house is sold.

[WendyB]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

Does he actually have the means to pay? Just wondering, as he has psychiatric issues, could you not get Power of Attorney and take over his affairs? You must also make the Court aware of these psyhiatric issues, mitigating circumstances etc. I know this all sounds quite harsh but it sounds to me that he needs protecting from himself.

[haradoka]

Re: Council Tax

I am trying to convince him that it is in his best interest to at least register me as an attorney. He is unwilling because he does not trust me to perpetuate his "schemes". The problem is, since his relocation to a residential home, he is no longer capable of maintaining them himself. Social services have told me that if he does not grant me LPA, he is likely to be allocated a deputy under the Court of Protection, and that will basically be the end of it.
Seems like he is on a road to nowhere.

[WendyB]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

Well if he's not in full command, can't you get POA under the Mental health Act or something? Not actually sure if this is possible, just a thought...

[jannew-s]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

You need to contact your local authoritry to see if he has a liability order and if so for wahat years. This is lagally binding and if your father hast paid for the whole year he could be liable for a couple of months of that year.

Therefore he may be paying contributions towards Council tax, but for which years. They can only recover after six years if there is a lability order

[Caspar]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

I don't want to throw spanners in the works, but if the council discuss your father's personal financial affairs with you without his permission, won't they be in severe breach of the DPA?

Can you not explain to your father that signing for you to have Lasting Power of Attorney should he lose his faculties at some stage is better than the alternative where someone totally unrelated will be appointed to act in what they consider his best interests. At least you know what he would have done, whether or not it's what you would decide to do for him if he reaches this state.

Unfortunately people who exercise Common Law without sufficient knowledge often end up in trouble. Because most of us disagree with it does not give us the right to stop those who do believe exercising what they see as their rights, as long as they know the potential consequences of their actions - you can certainly help here in pointing the consequences out.

IF he is doing it under Common Law show an interest (it is inherently interesting) and post up what he believes his rights are. I may be able to help here by pointing out other things tthrough my interest.

[jannew-s]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

Just a thought, but would he speak to someone outside the family or would this also be intrusive, how about a CPN, or maybe another relevant agency. If this does go to court there could be cause for remit on grounds, couldn't afford to pay etc. I know it is really hard, does he understand charging orders etc, but I must say we all hate asking about our parents affairs and it can be really distressing.

Please speak to the home regarding how thwy think his mental health may impair his judgment.

[haradoka]

Re: Council Tax

Thanks again for your comments.
To address a couple of points.
I have only a very broad picture of the situation with my father's Council Tax for the very reason you mention, Caspar; they won't discuss it in any detail with me because of Data Protection. The council person responsible for his case suggested that I get a letter from my father granting his permission to discuss his affairs with me. I prepared such a letter, but my father refused to sign it. He thinks I am interfering because I do not understand his approach.
Regarding Power of Attorney, again, this can only be done with his consent. I have made it clear to him that if he does not go through the formalities of granting it to me, at some point in the future (especially if he starts to lose his mental capacities) he will be appointed a deputy through the Court of Protection (for whom he will have to pay) and will lose all control to somebody unknown.
As far as his talking to an "independent arbiter" of any kind, this is a no-go. He mistrusts his social workers, nurses, care-workers etc.
It's a bit of a stalemate at the moment.
I am seeing him this weekend, and shall endeavour to find out exactly what it is he thinks he is doing. I bet he tells me that he does consider himself a "Freeman of the Land". Anyway, I'll report back later.
Thanks everybody.

[seduraed]

Re: Council Tax "Avoidance": Is it possible?

Perhaps you could persuade him to sign the power of attorney but phrase it in such a way that he feels you are making life earsier. IF he gets angry with nurses etc then maybe that would be a could moment to get the lasting power of attorney signed. Just to make your life easier dad I'll speak to them . I just need to show them your permssion ,typical beaurocrats got to have everything in writing. So you sell it as doing him a service to make his life easier.