Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

[necroscope]

Debt 1 - £705.00
Debt 2 - £950.00

Hi there...hope anyone can help...its a bit of a strange situation

I currently have an issue with CCS Enforcement bailiffs & not sure if they can do what they claim...heres the story (hopefully it will make sense, im not to good at writing things)....

I have 2 different outstanding Council tax years to pay, of which, both have gone to CCS for collection. Unfortunately when they visited they were allowed into the premises by someone that was staying with me at the time, so they now have a walking possesion order for the first council tax bill. they've refused all offers of payments that i can afford, instead telling me that i MUST pay what order me to (currently £200+ per month). i offered £100pm and they refused it stating that the council has instructed them to get the debt paid within 4 months....so i basically havent paid them a penny apart from £400 over the last 6 months. i have a 6month old daughter so money goes for her care if i have it.

Now they are due in the next couple of days to remove goods (and slap on another £500+ in charges), which ok, im resigned to the fact
that they will & let them get on with it.....

However..... they are stating that because theres a second outstanding bill (different reference number), they can use the WPO/liability order for the first one as well. I was under the impression that because it IS a different bill (albeit for the same thing, just different year) they have to follow the whole "send letters, knock on door, dont get let in etc etc." procedure as if it was a seperate case, but they are claiming thats not true....theyve only been granted the WPO for the first account, not the second

as to the WPO itself... when they visited, they took inventory of the main things, Tv, dvd player etc....but didnt add on the computer, instead just put the standard "and any other goods other than excempt items" line at the bottom. the inventory consisted of just items in the living room, they didnt view the other rooms yet......so does that mean that a) i can remove the PC as it wasnt listed specifically (granted they saw it, but if its not listed????) and b) can i still move stuff out from the other rooms??

Also (sorry) what can they take/not take. as i cant find a list on their website nor the counciils for what they can do. eg...can they take my kettle, microwave (used for when my gas runs out) mobile phone (needed for work as im on call 24/7 but bailiffs claim they can take it anyway) home phone etc etc...a complete list of what can be taken would be a great help

Another thing with the PC....I informed them that i need it for my website moderation training, and even showed them the email/private message from the Admins of the site telling me i was undergoing training....The bailiffs said that because its not in writing to my home address (im in UK, websites based in USA) that it doesnt excempt it from being taken, is this right as i was under the impression that they can't remove anything required for training/job

I hope that all makes sense, Im not the best at writing things out & my train of though goes wonky at times

any advice/help would be appreciated

[Amethyst]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

Will flag up your post with some people who will be able to help - for now there is a little information Rundle And Co Bailiffs Take Over Ccs Enforcement Services Ltd - Legal Beagles and Legal Beagles- Bailiff Guide

welcome to the site, someone will be along shortly

[Guest]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

If you have not signed the Walking Possession Order then it is not valid. For Council Tax debt, the Walking Possession Order must be signed by the person named on the liability order or it is invalid.

Bailiffs are not allowed to take tools, goods, vehicles and other items of equipment necessary for use by you in your employment, business or vocation and clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of you and your family.

The levy might also be deficient, notwithstanding the fact that you have not signed the Walking Possession Order because it states "and any other goods other than exempt items" which could be considered irregular.

You should contact them at once and let them know that you are aware that the Walking Possession Order they have is invalid and that you will not allow them access to your home. Tell them that you are not attempting to avoid the debt, but that you will pay the council directly. You must also contact your local council and tell them that you believe that the bailiffs have behaved unlawfully and that you wish to deal them from now on and they must take the debt back from the bailiffs.

[necroscope]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

If you have not signed the Walking Possession Order then it is not valid. For Council Tax debt, the Walking Possession Order must be signed by the person named on the liability order or it is invalid.

Just to point out... the WPO was signed...it was the only way i could get the bugger to leave, as they wouldnt leave without a signature.

Bailiffs are not allowed to take tools, goods, vehicles and other items of equipment necessary for use by you in your employment, business or vocation and clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of you and your family.

I was told by the Bailiff that they can take bedding if i have more than 1 set (they take the spares), all furniture apart from 1 chair to allow me to sit, Microwave as i have a cooker (albeit until gas runs out...im on a meter). so what would "basic" be??? i cant find a proper list

Can anyone confirm the "other goods except exempt items" thing, because that's interested me now....its one of those things you never get told.

Also can anyone confirm a rule i found out....basically they can't take anything thats in use....so if i turn stuff on (washing machine on a long ass cycle for example), they cant take it...I'd like to know if thats true or not

I tried the Citizens Advice people...but can never get through on the phone, Tried continuously for 4 hours...no answer (nearest ones 14 miles away, so going physically is out of the question)

Thanks for the help so far guys, Hopefully other will have some more insight as well

[Amethyst]

Yes they can take bedding as long as they leave you at least one set deemed as essential.

Have you spoken with the council about this at all since the bailiff became involved?

They can basically take anything owned by you that isn't deemed essential...so yep extra chairs, extra bedding etc. *******s if they do though.

I really feel for you, especially with your baby too.

will try and get some more help.


The Removal of Goods:

1. 1. The Bailiff, when executing a distress warrant will not levy on the following items.
   (Council Tax Only)
   • Tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment that are necessary to the debtor in the course of their employment business or vocation.
   
   (Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rates)
   • Cooking and Heating appliances, where this would leave the individual with no means of preparing a hot meal and maintaining adequate heating for the household.
   • Refrigerators and food.
   • Bedding or household linen.
   • Beds and chairs, where this would leave the premises without one bed and one chair for each occupant.
   • Toys for the use of any child who is a member of the household.
   • Medical aids or medical equipment reasonably required for the use of any member of the household.
   • Books or any articles reasonably required for the education or training of the debtor.
   • Items purchased through authorized loans and grants advanced from the Social Fund.
   
   

there also seems to be something about children under the age of 12 in residence will try and find out more. also what council is it?

[Amy]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

The bailiff has made his list of seized goods, if it's not itemised on the Walking Possession order he can't take it.

Did you click the link that Ame gave you?

How much is he asking you to pay before he takes these goods? You need to get back in contact with the Council and negotiate a mutually acceptable amount to repay.

What identification did he show you when he called at your property?

[Amethyst]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

The Bailiff should also have contacted the council regarding the child before making the levy so maybe check that with the council when you call them tomorrow.

[necroscope]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

The bailiff has made his list of seized goods, if it's not itemised on the Walking Possession order he can't take it.

I'll list what they put on the WPO

1x hi-fi & speakers
1xwidescreen TV + remote (i dont actually have a remote for it)
1x dvd player +r/c (r/c = remote control)
1x vcr/dvd combi + r/c
1x xbox, games & accesories
1x digibox + r/c
1x vcr + r/c
1x portable dvd player +r/c
1x computer printer
1x portable cd player
all dvd's, videos, books
1x washing macine
all other goods except exempt items

That's exactly what was put on the WPO (i've ommited the brand names for the items)

Did you click the link that Ame gave you?

Yup..the address i have for CCS is different...its the following...
CCS Enforcement services limited
unit 10, the croft
buntsford drive
bromsgrove
worcestershire
b60 4je

How much is he asking you to pay before he takes these goods? You need to get back in contact with the Council and negotiate a mutually acceptable amount to repay.

he wants full payment, no exceptions....even claims he has a email from his head office stating that he MUST remove goods now

What identification did he show you when he called at your property?

he showed me a id badge, but as i work nights & sleep during the day, i was still half asleep at the time so didnt really scrutinise it

Have you spoken with the council about this at all since the bailiff became involved?

I've tried speaking to them but all their response was "its in the hands of the bailiff, nothing we can do now..we wont retract it"

I really feel for you, especially with your baby too.

I should have mentioned..my Daughter lives with her mother not with me...although she does visit, and i have toys & teddys for her...but because she dont live here they can take them as well (apparently)

Also..just another thought...because i live in a block of flats...am i right in thinking that if i remove anything & leave it in the communal entrance, they cant take it as its not actually inside my property? (providing its not specifically listed on the WPO

[Amy]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

all other goods except exempt items

He hasn't listed them, he can't have them.

he wants full payment, no exceptions....even claims he has a email from his head office stating that he MUST remove goods now

Regardless of what his alleged email says, he cannot have what you have not got and he must negotiate with you. Inform the council of this.

he showed me a id badge, but as i work nights & sleep during the day, i was still half asleep at the time so didnt really scrutinise it

Not good enough. He will need to be a certificated bailiff and he needs to have shown you evidence of this. Do you know if he is certificated?

Everything must be clearly explained to you before you sign a walking possession order, which it wasn't as you were half asleep.

I've tried speaking to them but all their response was "its in the hands of the bailiff, nothing we can do now..we wont retract it"

Complete rubbish. The council is responsible for the behaviour of the bailiffs in their employ and you must remind them of this.

I should have mentioned..my Daughter lives with her mother not with me...although she does visit, and i have toys & teddys for her...but because she dont live here they can take them as well (apparently)

What possible gain could they get from selling your daughter's toys. Again, this is rubbish and you need to inform the council of his behaviour.

[Amy]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

I've found this for you.

Bailiffs acting on behalf of the magistrates' court cannot seize the following goods:

• clothing, beds and bedding tools of the trade
• basic domestic needs of the family would normally include fridge, cookers, freezers, but may not include video recorders, second TV's, jewellery, washing machines, stereos or microwave cookers.

[necroscope]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

Regardless of what his alleged email says, he cannot have what you have not got and he must negotiate with you. Inform the council of this.

Can i refuse to let him in (even though he has a WPO) if he doesnt provide me with proof?

Not good enough. He will need to be a certificated bailiff and he needs to have shown you evidence of this. Do you know if he is certificated?

is there a way i can find out if he is for definate...a phone number or anything?

Will call council tomorrow & see what they say ( i sent them an email on the 10th December asking for the "code of conduct" for their bailiffs...as they are supposed to have it on their website )every other council does apart from this one)) never recieved a reply)

Also can anyone answer the other question about if i remove items from the other rooms & place them in the communal hallway, that they would safe, as asfar as im aware, if its not actually inside my flat they cant have it

another thing...once theyve been & cleared it out...can they keep coming back as often & when they want, because if thats so, there would be no point in me getting anything ever again (minimalist lifestyle here i come )

and another....what happens if i move home...as ive been offered to rent a room at a friends house?

Yet another...i still have items that belong to my Ex partner (the mother of my daughter (long story) but we split up & she moved out years ago, but we were still seeing each other on & off (hence the daughter)... now, she moved out BEFORE the debt was incurred, but left stuff behind as she didnt have the room for them in her own place. I still have the original credit card reciepts & sales invoices for them (all in her name).. so i guess the question is, because they were items owned by her before my debt, but still in the premises, can they be taken, as the baliff claims they can

[Amy]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

Can i refuse to let him in (even though he has a WPO) if he doesnt provide me with proof?

No, he now has the power to break in.

is there a way i can find out if he is for definate...a phone number or anything?

Yes, the details are in the link Ame gave you. Here Legal Beagles

Will call council tomorrow & see what they say ( i sent them an email on the 10th December asking for the "code of conduct" for their bailiffs...as they are supposed to have it on their website )every other council does apart from this one)) never recieved a reply)

You need to keep on at them, they cannot just wash their hands of it.

Also can anyone answer the other question about if i remove items from the other rooms & place them in the communal hallway, that they would safe, as asfar as im aware, if its not actually inside my flat they cant have it

He has a walking possession order and if he thinks you are likely to do this he will call unannounced to try and catch you out.

another thing...once theyve been & cleared it out...can they keep coming back as often & when they want, because if thats so, there would be no point in me getting anything ever again (minimalist lifestyle here i come )

They can only take what is itemised on the walking possession order. They can't return and take what is not there can they.

Yet another...i still have items that belong to my Ex partner (the mother of my daughter (long story) but we split up & she moved out years ago, but we were still seeing each other on & off (hence the daughter)... now, she moved out BEFORE the debt was incurred, but left stuff behind as she didnt have the room for them in her own place. I still have the original credit card reciepts & sales invoices for them (all in her name).. so i guess the question is, because they were items owned by her before my debt, but still in the premises, can they be taken, as the baliff claims they can

If you can prove the goods are not yours then they cannot take them either.

[tomtubby]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

I am sorry but I had missed this post . The walking possession is wrong and I am surprised that this bailiff did not know of the well know legal ruling of Mrs Ambrose the details of which are as follows:

LEGAL CASE:

MRS AMBROSE v NOTTINHGAM CITY COUNCIL


This is well known legal case that has been relied upon many times when either issuing proceedings, or one that can be referred to when writing a letter of complaint.

This case concerns a lady by the name of Mrs Ambrose who claimed that a levy (distress) was irregular as bailiffs had removed goods from the home that were necessary for “providing the basic domestic needs of the family”

Background:

Mrs Ambrose and her husband had an unpaid Council Tax bill for £851.00 owing to Nottingham City Council. In September 2003, Rossendale’s Bailiffs attended at their home to levy distress on goods. Rossendale’s had entered the property, where they identified items that were listed on a Walking Possession. Next to those items listed, the bailiff wrote the words: “and all other goods on the premises unless exempt or specially exempt by statute.” The bailiff had not looked around the house; he had merely entered one room and was therefore unable to see which items were “exempt”

Regulation 45 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 lists the following items as being exempt from seizure:

• "Such tools, books, vehicles and other items of equipment as are necessary for use personally in employment, business or vocation"
• "Such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying basic domestic needs of the person and family".

As the Council Tax remained unpaid, the bailiff returned with a van to seize furniture that included a sofa, footstool and two dining chairs.

District Judge Cooper agreed that the seizure was irregular as the bailiff had removed furniture that was necessary for “satisfying the basic domestic needs of Mrs Ambrose and her family” This was because, amongst other items removed, the bailiffs had removed 2 dining chairs. They left behind the table and the remaining two chairs. As the family consisted of Mrs & Mrs Ambrose and one child, the bailiffs should have left seating for 3 people, not two.

Nottingham City Council had argued that there could not be any irregularity as Mrs Ambrose had signed the Walking Possession. This was rejected by Judge Cooper who agreed that Mrs Ambrose was faced with the prospect of having her goods removed unless she signed the Walking Possession.

As important as the above is, the Judge also agreed that the wording on the Walking Possession was deficient in that the reference to “all other goods on the premises unless exempt” did not specify what those other goods were, and which ones were exempt. The Judge agreed that the levy was also irregular for this reason.




…………………………………..

Note: Nottingham Magistrates Court October 2004. (On Appeal….District Judge Cooper.



Bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

[Amethyst]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

Thanks I'll pop that case on a seperate post and sticky it. Do you know what happened with it in the end ?

Would you be able to use the 'all other items unless exempt' to make the order invalid and stop them taking your posessions in the first place? and wouldnt the bailiff company simply remove that from the list and pressure you to re-sign it.

The taking of too many items, ie the extra chair, would only be of use after they have.

Can contacting the council and sorting out a repayment plan put a stop on things or once the walking possession order is signed is that it unless you pay the bailiff and fees in full ?

[spirit2534]

Re: Council Tax/CCS Enforcement

Hi

I'm relatively new to this forum & legal beagles.

I'm very interested in the items on bailiffs, not that I face them at the moment, have however had several tussles with Council Enforcement Officers.

I'm in the very fortunate position of actually being able to pay if necessary (via a third party) all the arrears that I owe. But their attitude so infuriates me that I'm tempted to point score.
Any information gained I will willingly share.