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  1. #26
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Still doing research on this mob.
    Have also found them in New Zealand. Media Solutions Nz Limited


    One of the infamous directors lives here. Angela Margaret Darnell
    Must be dripping in money from scammed companies..

    David Ravenscroft's home is registered as being on Patricks Avenue, Grand Cayman.

    So that's where the money goes........
    It also shows the Ultimate Holding Company for the NZ company to be Commonwealth Bank Of Australia. Seems likely they have a charge on the company

    Here's another incarnation. Media International Holdings Ltd

  2. #27
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Just sent an email to Grahame Morris, our local MP.

    Dear Grahame,
    please find a pdf of a matter I would like you to consider raising in the House and perhaps instigating discussion for changes in law. Perhaps it can be printed out for consultation if needed.
    -------------------------------------
    PDF says:
    Dear Grahame.
    I wish to raise a matter that perhaps you can throw some weight behind. It relates to the trading situation of small companies and in particular their rights within a business to business contract.

    I will outline an instance here before expanding on the problem, and potential solution to it.

    My wife has a ladies fashion shop selling mainly special occasion ladies-wear and mother of the bride & groom outfits. She is good at what she does but her knowledge is restricted to the business sector she is in. She is not sophisticated and tends to take people at their word, so if a supplier promises something she expects that promise to be fulfilled without recourse to picking through contractual details on an order form.
    Contract law is not something she has any clue about.

    A few weeks ago, a director from an advertising company made a cold call into her shop whilst it was pretty busy with customers. He was selling advertising on TV screens in health centres etc. It seemed a good idea at that time and based on what she was told she went ahead and signed documents for the acceptance, ie a contract. She had no time to read the terms and conditions on the back, in small print, and as the sales person was pushy, she made a deposit of over £2000 for the first 6 months payment, to be followed by regular payments thereafter.

    Following that visit,the contract copy could not be found anywhere in the shop and I have since found out from other affected retailers that this is a normal practice. They take the copy with them surreptitiously so as to prevent it being read. As there are discontinuance conditions within the contract a retailer would not know that a rollover contract for a further 2 years would result unless the cancellation was done as per the clauses in the contract.
    Apart from that, the contract is diabolical, even having a clause (22) which effectively allows them to lie and misdirect a retailer without any comeback. A copy is attached which you may like to read.

    I have since made a thorough investigation on Google of the company concerned and it is
    mentioned as being a scam company. I have sufficient evidence to present to any court of their dodgy activities including forged signatures, increased prices on contracts etc.

    Now, that explanation leads me to the gist of the problem.
    The targets for these scam companies are small businesses. They tend to be much the same as my wife, and sign things when under pressure. The tears start later when they realise they have been scammed but can't do anything about it as a B2B contract doesn't make any provisions to allow redress for anything not within the contract. If the contract says there is no cancellation period then that's it. If it states that a non refundable deposit is required, then you pay your money and suffer the consequences.

    An unsophisticated small business owner should be given the same treatment as a normal person within the Consumer Rights Act. I note that Australia has this within their own legislation and I see no reason why small businesses within the UK cannot be brought into a similar arrangement.

    Considering that a person acting as a sole proprietor, or is a director of a company no larger than half a dozen people with a small turnover they should be treated in a totally different way to the likes of large businesses with a hundred or so employees and a large turnover which have recourse to business advice from their legal departments or solicitors.

    Putting an expectation of Buyer Beware onto the shoulders of someone without legal knowledge, or who may even be limited in intelligence, as so many small business owners may well be, is disproportionate to the requirement of good faith contractual relationships.

    In our own case I have a pretty good understanding of the legal implications of these sort of things and know that once a signature is placed on a B2B contract,it's as solid as rock. However I'm also astute in finding things about scams and I have a great number of points that I put together to make a chargeback of the deposit my wife paid on a VISA Debit card for £2000 which has been successful.

    If you wish to avail yourself of the rundown on this company, from the perspective of seeing how a B2B contract on small business effects the targetted companies, then I have it posted on Legal Beagles website here.

    The contract so you can see the profound absurdity and unfairness of the stated terms and conditions is available from this link
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Amethyst; 19th July 2017 at 10:05:AM.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    I just wanted to update on my progress so far.
    Our bank has done a chargeback on the 2 monthly payments we made to Patient Direct. We haven't had our deposit back but hopefully if Lynnzer was able to get their deposit back this should be possible. Just very busy with other things at the moment and have already dedicated so much time to this on the phone to Trading Standards, Action Fraud etc

    On Monday, Patient Direct responded to my email complaint. One of their "service managers" phoned me and was extremely aggressive saying things like "how dare you". Left me shaking after the phone call. The weird thing is the email she sent me afterwards and all subsequent emails seemed way more reasonable and I wonder if this is so I would be disbelieved if I said she was very rude and aggressive?

    Their email response says they had a full written report from the agent who said he told us he could let us pay a 3 month deposit as we couldn't afford more (untrue- our cashflow is good and paying a smaller deposit would in no way sway us into signing a long contract)

    They also said they do not offer 1 year contracts so there is no way our contract could have been for a year.

    She said my signature might look different because it was signed on an Ipad. I can't remember whether I signed on an Ipad or not but all I know is there was definitely a piece of paper involved as I am sure I remember the agent filling in a box on a form, with a pen, to say 30 seconds. They have been unable to produce a copy of the piece of paper I remember. I believe the paper would have different terms on it to what they claim we signed up to.

    I know they might send bailiffs to chase their money. Am I right in thinking this is illegal? Can I phone the police if they do come? I am likely to be alone in the shop and will find it extremely intimidating if they do turn up, not to mention the embarrassment of it happening in front of customers. I know I'm getting ahead of myself but I just want to be prepared with the facts so I can try to be a bit strong.

  4. #29
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnzer View Post
    Just sent an email to Grahame Morris, our local MP.
    Great email, do let us know what he comes back with.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  5. #30
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Quote Originally Posted by patientdirectscam View Post

    I know they might send bailiffs to chase their money. Am I right in thinking this is illegal? Can I phone the police if they do come? I am likely to be alone in the shop and will find it extremely intimidating if they do turn up, not to mention the embarrassment of it happening in front of customers. I know I'm getting ahead of myself but I just want to be prepared with the facts so I can try to be a bit strong.
    They couldn't send bailiffs unless they went to court and obtained a Court Judgment against you first - that wouldn't happen as you would defend the claim ( and win IMO ).


    How to the terms they have presented to you compare with the paperwork Lynnzer posted - http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/PDTerms.pdf ?

    Good news on the chargebacks you've won so far.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  6. #31
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    They couldn't send bailiffs unless they went to court and obtained a Court Judgment against you first - that wouldn't happen as you would defend the claim ( and win IMO ).


    How to the terms they have presented to you compare with the paperwork Lynnzer posted - http://www.thebridesmother.co.uk/Media/PDTerms.pdf ?

    Good news on the chargebacks you've won so far.
    Thanks for the advice Amethyst

    So does that mean they won't actually send bailiffs? Only threaten to? In which case I can just go back to them and tell them it needs to go through the courts first?

    The terms & conditions attached to the contract they sent me look identical to the ones Lynnzer posted.

  7. #32
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Yes they have to go through court before they can send bailiffs. If you write to them tell them that you intend to strongly defend any court action they may chose to take.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  8. #33
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    It's unlikely they'll want to take a court action for a small amount. They have a duty to mitigate their loss and the only loss they can prove is one that entails anything completed which has incurred expense to them. Let's say they have done artwork for a cost of £30, then they can't expect to get more in value as it falls within the definition of betterment.

    I still haven't heard anything from my Visa company but today I got an email:

    We write in relation to the digital advertising agreement at Hartlepool Hospital and Peterlee Community Hospital.
    This email is just to give you an update in relation to the publication of your advertisement at the above sites.
    We have been informed today that there is a delay in the installation of our advertising screens in this site. We apologise for any inconvenience that this may cause, as soon as our screen is installed we will then publish your advertisement and update you further. Please be aware that your advertising time is not affected by this delay, your time does not commence until the day you are published.
    If you have any questions or queries, please do not hesitate to contact our office.
    Kind Regards,
    Andrew Storey
    Customer Services
    Multimedia International Services Ltd
    I responded by saying "I'm sorry but I don't have any contract with Multimedia International Ltd."

    Let's see what they come back with but I don't expect them to lie down on it without threats.
    I wish them luck with that as well as clause 22 allows a contractee to work in accordance to the same conditions as the principal. ie the ability to tell porkies with no place for argument.
    So, in fact it could be said the contract was signed with the full intentions to just get rid of the aggressive rep and with every intent to cancel it late, ie telling a porkie when signing acceptance.

    "22. It is agreed and declared that this Agreement contains all the terms and conditions between the parties hereto, supercedes all prior agreements and arrangements with regard to the advertisements and that the company has made no warranty (oral or otherwise) except expressly stated herein. It is further agreed and declared that no monopoly rights shall be enjoyed by the advertiser unless endorsed on the Agreement and initiated by the Company's agent.
    Without imitating the generality of the foregoing, neither party shall have any remedy in respect of any untrue statement made to it upon which it may have relied in entering into the Agreement purports to exclude liability for any fraudulent statement or act."

    That's a whole load of gobbledegook to me but it seems to exclude either party from a remedy for untruthful statements or acts. I can't see how a retailer cannot simply say they made an untruthful statement of acceptace to the contracted terms so the contract cannot stand.

    I seem to think that a poorly worded clause or one with an obscure meaning is for the benefit of the "consumer" in such cases, but don't know if that just applies to non B2B contracts.

    Anyway, as above, they have lost nothing so a claim will be of little financial benefit to them.

  9. #34
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    We've got a court claim we're supporting someone with for a 'wastage fee' of £15 at the moment... these kind of companies can tend to rely on the 'fear' of a court claim, and the 87% of claims that go to default judgment, rather than any true legal claim they might or might not have.

    Wonder if it's worth a call to the Hartlepool Hospital and Peterlee Community Hospital regarding whether they are in the process of installing multimedia screens and whether they intend them to carry advertising, and if they are if they can tell you which company they are going through.

    We did that with a few NHS trusts on the 'staff benefits' advertising issue ( very similar ) and they often just said they didn't use it.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  10. #35
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    That's going to happen.

    I also notice a fatal error on the contract that will see off any action.
    It's based on a wrong party point. Won't divulge more just yet. It's not unknown for these people to scan the forums for info.

    My wife has also seen the copy of the contract. She says the signature has been added to - altered, and the "name" of the signatory which is supposed to be in normal text has been added in as handwriting afterwards too.
    Last edited by Lynnzer; 19th July 2017 at 16:19:PM.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    This may be a useful starting point for others finding this topic.

  12. #37
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Things are happening.
    1st is that I got an email yesterday saying to view the advert for approval. I told them to stuff it, more or less.

    Next I got a Direct Debit instruction for checking the details, due to start in November. Have also told them to stuff that too. The bank can't take any forward notice of a DD being set up without consent. I just have to keep my eye on the situation and make a cancellation if one is placed, which would also result in a chargeback if money was taken.

    I have heard nothing from my emails telling them to sod off, nor have I heard anything from the bank regarding an appeal against the chargeback.

    I'm also filling you in on my comment from the previous post.
    The contract has an incorrect name on it. That is, it doesn't show us a being a Ltd Co.
    Also the address is wrong. They have put the shop address down instead of the company's registered address. As there used to be a previous incarnation of the company trading as a partnership without the Ltd at the end of it, that was closed in 2005 it would seem to present them with insurmountable problems if they decide to take action.

    If they raise a claim for breach of contract against the company on the signed contract it will be destined for the bin. That company closed 12 years ago.

    They also cannot add in the new company identity as it will be different from that on the signed contract.

    I believe that's what's called a GOTCHA.

    I've also sat and considered everything my wife and her staff told me about the presentation of the advertising in the shop.
    It was mentioned by my wife that a 2 year contract would be too long and it was agreed that it would be done yearly. The contract doesn't say that. It still says two years. That's definite misrepresentation but their clause 22 disallows that to be used as a means of redress. However, the link in my previous post still says that misrepresentation can be a tool to back out of a contract in some situations even if there's a clause saying the lies and misrepresentation cannot be a cause to cancel the contract.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Received this invoice from them in the post today. This is the first monthly invoice we've received from them.
    The monthly payment in no way ties up with the amount shown on the contract.
    https://ibb.co/eyLkuk

    Contract states "This will be a deposit (non refundable) equal to one half of the the first years value of this agreement,plus VAT, at the time of signing. The remaining balance, plus VAT, will be split equally over an 18 month period and will be collected by direct debit or credit card commencing on
    dispatch of advertising proof."

    I can't come to their figure of £99.20 when I do the sums but I had another thought as well. If you start paying the monthly payment on commencement of advertising, do you then get a payment break after 18 months? Given that I've heard the contract automatically rolls over I assume they'll keep taking the monthly payments forever?
    Not that these minor points actually matter right now but I've come slightly obsessed with this.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    It's easy to get obsessed.
    My last session with them included mention that so far no VAT Invoice had been received, which is a legal requirement anyway. So the fact that they have sent a proforma invoice which shows no VAT number is also unlawful. They cannot demand payment to produce one for you.

    You have to wonder if they actually declare these on their VAT returns, or whether the money goes straight to a bank in Grand Cayman. I searched the Panama files for any indication of them but found nothing. In fact why would they be? Grand Cayman is just as secretive.
    There are so many anomalies in the whole presentation right through to the actual collection of payments and the misrepresentation along the way. To say nothing of the alteration of contracts.

    For anyone who gets involved in their advertising they really should at least get a reminder of the fact that they have to cancel before the 6 month end of contract to avoid a rollover. I think there's legislation in the pipeline to prevent this sort of scam anyway.

    So, it's now well after my chargeback and my last mail to them telling them that they are on a loser if they do actually go ahead with the advertising as they said they would. I told them to stuff it, basically.

    I might be early in saying this, but all's gone quiet. I was half expecting solicitors letters for a breach of contract claim but then they would have to answer why the signature has been altered/added to on the contract and then try to justify claiming against an entity that no longer exists anyway.

  15. #40
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Hi Lynnzer - do you have any more details as to how your wife's signature was altered / added to? I'm trying to piece together gaps in my hazy memory of the day of our visit from the salesman. Patient Direct tried getting in contact with me last week via telephone but I wasn't in. I'll tell them next time they phone to put everything in writing. They seem to love corresponding over the phone - I guess it's because they can be extremely rude without me having any proof!

  16. #41
    Lynnzer's Avatar

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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Quote Originally Posted by patientdirectscam View Post
    Hi Lynnzer - do you have any more details as to how your wife's signature was altered / added to? I'm trying to piece together gaps in my hazy memory of the day of our visit from the salesman. Patient Direct tried getting in contact with me last week via telephone but I wasn't in. I'll tell them next time they phone to put everything in writing. They seem to love corresponding over the phone - I guess it's because they can be extremely rude without me having any proof!
    The signature was just signed with a letter then a surname, ie J Dobbs. The alteration was made to show the full first name so it now shows as Jill J Dobbs.

    The addition of the "Jill" is a clear alteration as it presumes that J actually stands for Jill when it could equally be Joan. Anyway, it's not "as signed".

    Don't do anything over the phone. You have to "lead" them into a trap by email.
    All correspondence is then easily accessible for use in any court case they may decide to take.

    I posed them lots of questions regarding the legitimacy of their business that basically demanded a no-win answer. Such as "Can you confirm why Patient Direct is absent from the Companies House register".

    Don't ask them to validate things they can. It adds to their legitimacy.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Vat number - gb 741327060. ???

    From the GP side - might be of interest

    https://practiceindex.co.uk/gp/patient-direct-uk



    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

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  18. #43
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    Default Re: Business contract cancellation

    That Nick Slater certainly gets about he ripped me off as well, misquoted the cost, the size, design and frequency of the adverts. On the order form he got the name of my non limited company wrong and left the DD amount blank, again telling me one price then charging another taking money from my account that was different and at a different date to what was agreed.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Business contract cancellation

    This is almost identical to what happened with me, misquoted the price, misled me on the design of the ads as well as the frequency of display, told me it was one year with a second as an option and took out more money from my account and at a different time to what he said. There is a section (220 on the back of the agreement that basically says they don't have to tell the truth when entering into the agreement but as it also says neither party I might use that line and say I didn't mean to pay you either.
    I have written into Action Fraud, NHS England, NHS Protect, the regional NHS trusts, the surgeries and posted warnings on every business networking group on Facebook I can find. I am also going to contact each of the other advertisers and remind them of the need to cancel by recorded delivery with more than 6 months notice or get an automatic renewal fee.

    - - - Updated - - -

    For some reason on my carbon copy he added my name although I signed it

  20. #45
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    Default Re: Business contract cancellation

    If you do so, ensure your letter is kept factual or you could be accused of tortious interference ( or defamation ).
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

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  21. #46
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    They have probably included the admin fee of £198 plus VAT

  22. #47
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    I see from that the GP is supposed to get 5% of the advertising revenue so I will raise that with them. At the clinic there was another banner at the bottom of the screen so its another couple of inches smaller than in the video. I don't have access to the relevant data bases but do the Company number of 3834803 and VAT number of 741327060 relate to Patient Direct or Multimedia International?

  23. #48
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03834803

    PD is a trading name of MUltimedia International
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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  24. #49
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Thanks

  25. #50
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    Default Re: * SORTED * Business contract cancellation Patient Direct

    Sorry, I'm using this thead as a bit of a diary to keep notes about Patient Direct now!

    A woman from Patient Direct phoned me this afternoon to say that our last couple of monthly payments hadn't gone through. I replied simply "yes", then eventually she said "well have you changed your debit card or something?". I said that I'd emailed with details of why I wasn't paying anymore, due to the fraud, and she said oh I can see an email here let me have a look. Anyway she said that I'd paid a deposit and if I paid a deposit I *must* have signed the contract. I'm not sure how that logic follows! It confused me a bit, so I said I couldn't remember the details and asked her to put everything in writing. I still haven't had any official correspondence from them regarding lack of payments. Maybe they'll send something now.
    I also note that I thought her voice sounded a bit shaky at the end of the phone call like she was very angry(?) and trying not to be...

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