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Thread: PCN October 2011

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  1. #51
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Hi Mystery i know you must be very busy but did you see my message below? Thanks again

  2. #52
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Looks good to me.

    M1
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    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

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    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    High Mystery
    I have to write the WS now any templates I can use I can down load for guidance?
    Everyone has been so helpful on all the different forums so getting as much advice as I can.
    Thanks for your help. ☺

  4. #54
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    There can't really be a template for a witness statement as everyone will be different. There is an example here which shows the details that must be included. Between the start and the finish tell your own story as best you can and point to evidence that supports your case

    And even pointers on this site.

  5. #55
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Hello thank you
    Sorry I meant a template for the layout etc.
    I don't have any thing to add as evidence etc as right from the beginning I was advised by all forums not to contact the Parking Company or their Graham White Solicitors at all so I never did for anything.
    As far as I am/was concerned I was not the driver at the time so ignored everything.
    I can only state that and that I was the R/Keeper and not the driver. I don't have the original PCN with the photo as I threw it away.
    The PCN was November 2011 so can just point out that it was before the law changed regarding chasing up the driver/keeper.
    Also I don't have any proof of where I was on that occasion so don't have much really other than telling them I was not the driver.
    I have never driven to that car park ever as having learned to drive and passing my test late in life I am or should say was a nervous driver (I don't drive now for that reason) so would avoid very busy places if possible and that was and still is the same. The exit was always a nightmare slightly improved with traffic lights further down the road slowing up traffic.
    So I would always park somewhere else and walk.
    Don't or didn't have named drivers on insurance as at that time anyone who borrowed my car had their own insurance covering them to drive another person's car, I always made sure of that but can't remember all those years ago who was driving.
    Last edited by Merlin77; 28th June 2017 at 17:25:PM. Reason: Spelling mistake

  6. #56
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Your defence is that you were not the driver and as such have no liability.

    Your witness statement will be short. It will state you were the registered keeper. It will state you were not the driver (preferably with an explanation such as your were out the country, working, unable to drive etc to add credability to this)

    You will also supply the popla report from 2015 https://popla.co.uk/docs/default-sou...5.pdf?sfvrsn=2

    Page 13 Henry Greenslade QC said

    "However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in
    law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never
    suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued
    under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient
    has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example,
    a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must
    be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road
    Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to
    name the driver. Any evidence in this regard may therefore be highly relevant."

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  7. #57
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Hi Mystery
    I thought I had sent this to you but on checking I couldn't see it listed, please could you tell me if this WS is ok to send.
    Thanks have sent it in word
    Attached Files Attached Files

  8. #58
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Change unacceptable in #9 to something like hard, difficult.

    I would add in from https://popla.co.uk/docs/default-sou...5.pdf?sfvrsn=2 the words of Henry Michael Greenslade QC

    "However keeper information is obtained, there is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in
    law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never
    suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued
    under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient
    has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example,
    a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must
    be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road
    Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to
    name the driver. Any evidence in this regard may therefore be highly relevant."

    Although this pertains to when keeper liability and PoFA were enacted the principle is the same. No presumption in law.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    @mystery1

    I spent ages yesterday looking for that Henry Greenslade quote (for another thread).
    I should have waited 'til this morning, lol!
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
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  10. #60
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Hi Mystery
    Do I just copy that paragraph in somewhere showing the link as well and say that these are the words of HG Greenslade QC as you have done? And where should I put that?
    Thank you

  11. #61
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    I'd add it to #7 but i wouldn't bother with the link.

    I would submit the report as well though.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  12. #62
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    I'd add it to #7 but i wouldn't bother with the link.

    I would submit the report as well though.

    M1
    How do I do that though? I haven't a clue with all this, I can copy and paste the part about what H Greenslade said but am afraid that I am putting things down I don't know enough about it.
    I have to send this tomorrow. Just in an ordinary envelope and proof of posting?

  13. #63
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Mystery
    I sent the witness statement in and have received the claiments bundle with photos of my car etc very dark photos not showing anyone who was driving and can honestly say it wasn't me but someone asked me had I written out my skeleton argument so thought all this was finished now till the hearing.
    As I was not the driver and the PCN predates the PoFA date I thought there wouldn't be much of an argument anyway as they have to prove who was driving etc so what do I need to say in a skeleton argument and do I need one?
    Thanks again

  14. #64
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    You don't "need" one as you can make your arguments in person on the day. It is best to do one though.

    Lots of links http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=5672664 on there so have a good read.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  15. #65
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Hi mystery thanks for the reply again,
    I have received the bundle from the claiments and they have quoted points in my defence saying the defence is premised on the following

    1.That the claimant has issued two claims (numbers of claims) for the same parking contravention.

    2. A general denial of the whole of the claim.

    3. The claim does not comply with CPR 16.4

    4. The costs and interest claimed are not payable.

    They also say the claimant's response generally the defence being a statement case appears not to comply with PD 31 that is not signed by the defendant the claim there for invites the court to strike out the defence under CPR 3.4 I don't understand what they mean that it was not signed by the defendant, they also say
    attempt at double recovery
    the claimant not attempting recovery as alleged the claim under court reference and they give the number relates to a contravention breaching the terms that occurred on the date
    I also don't understand when they say
    The claimant's claim form was issued online using money Claim online and under paragraph 4 1 PD 7E money Claim online the claimant's claim meets the conditions for starting a claim using mcol under paragraph 5.21 and 2B PD 7E the claimants particulars of claim were included in the online claim form however it had to comply with the restrictions of having only 1080 characters to set out it's particulars the claimant relies on paragraph 52 A PD 7E which states the requirement in paragraph 7.3 of practice Direction 16 for documents to be attached to the particulars of Contract Claims does not apply to claims started using an online claim form unless the particulars of claim are served separately in accordance with paragraph 5.2 of this practice Direction for the reasons set out above there has been a breach of PD 16 or CPR 16 in any event the claimants particulars are clear and concise and the defendant is put to strict proof to the contrary.
    So I don't understand all of that, then they go on about being the registered keeper and the usual stuff about signage quite a few things I don't understand I have sent the witness statement in as best I could in the proper layout as it had to be in by 20th July and just hope for the best sorry I didn't put it up for anyone to read I have had eye problems and have not been able to use the computer very much.
    As for where they say
    the claimant's claim was issued using money Claim online I only registered with the money Claim online and sent the rest of the stuff off in the post as was told or advised on the forum apparently I had to register online and that's what I did and didn't send any statements off online as I was told it would get all muddled up and the format is usually ruined that way so I sent it all off in the post.
    Where they say that I had said that they had issued 2 claims for the same parking contravention I did not say that I said as was advised on the forum that they had made two claims for the same set of circumstances and where I had said double recovery as was advised as well meaning that they were attempting to make double recovery for the same set of circumstances and could have asked for the two claims to be heard at the same time, they were separate claims but they seem to be making out that I am saying that I denied the whole of the claim and that's not true so I am a little bit confused and don't know what to say regarding making a skeleton argument I feel I cannot do all of this and will probably just stand there like a 68 year old granny feeling rather vulnerable. I wish I had paid this money up in the beginning now but see what you think there is loads more regarding pictures and signage that they have enclosed there is no photograph of anyone driving my car very dark photos of just the registration numbers as I say I was not driving and I was not a passenger so I don't know who was driving and who borrowed my car at that time as it is such a long time ago nearly 6 years which is what I had said in the witness statement.
    Sorry for any mistakes regarding punctuation in this post as I used the Google microphone because I have a job to see at the moment and not able to use the PC with the screen causing eye problems, will be glad for any advice regarding this skeleton argument and what I should say in response to their response to my WS.
    The hearing is mid September.
    Thanks again.
    Last edited by Merlin77; 30th July 2017 at 08:45:AM.

  16. #66
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Did my post get posted?

  17. #67
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    As for where they say
    the claimant's claim was issued using money Claim online I only registered with the money Claim online and sent the rest of the stuff off in the post as was told or advised on the forum apparently I had to register online and that's what I did and didn't send any statements off online as I was told it would get all muddled up and the format is usually ruined that way so I sent it all off in the post.
    They are saying they were restricted by the online service only allowing 1080 characters to make the claim, which is true, but totally ignores that if you cannot make your claim properly you should use the old fashioned paper system. Nothing to do with how you have defended the claim.


    Where they say that I had said that they had issued 2 claims for the same parking contravention I did not say that I said as was advised on the forum that they had made two claims for the same set of circumstances and where I had said double recovery as was advised as well meaning that they were attempting to make double recovery for the same set of circumstances and could have asked for the two claims to be heard at the same time,
    They should have made one claim, i agree. The fees (costs) would be lower. There would also, obviously, be only 1 defence etc



    Have a read through the successes http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/....php?t=5672664 which has links to threads and/or parking prankster reports.

    M1
    ********************************Signature********* ************************

    Private messages are off as all help on this site is on board.

    Please note i am now pretty much without access/time to help 5 days a week. Others will hopefully help you.


    I can only help with what you tell me. Post up information (other than names and addresses!).

    I NEVER enter any appeals or court documentation on your behalf. This is your responsibility.

    Upload images to your thread like this .Email kati@legalbeagles.info if you can't upload images/documents. She doesn't own a crystal ball as far as i'm aware so link to your thread or tell her how to find it !

    If you want to tell someone YOU were driving, go to confession.

    I,I,I,I,I,I should be avoided unless you are Jim Diamond.

  18. #68
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    Default Re: PCN October 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    They should have made one claim, i agree. The fees (costs) would be lower. There would also, obviously, be only 1 defence etc
    M1
    They are also duty bound via CPR to comply with the Overriding Objective, particularly concerning court time & resources.
    The more cynical me would suspect that separate claims for similar causes would net them 'double bubble' in costs for little extra effort. (Just a bit of copying & pasting).

    If it were me I'd check with DVLA to see how many times (& when) my data was accessed.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

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