VT and balloon payments

[Kati]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Got it [MENTION=86352]Lynne[/MENTION] ... I'll check it and post it up xx

[Kati]

Re: VT and balloon payments

[MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION]

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Hi Lynne,

I've done some rough calculations here but since the date of the agreement entered into you seem to have paid around £4,100-£4,200?

Page 2 in the box that says YOUR TERMINATION RIGHTS explains you need to pay half which is £5,499.98. As you've not met this amount you do actually owe them some money, but it does not change the fact that you have given notice to terminate.

The optional payment is £4,291.95, this is the optional payment and you do not have to pay it you only need to meet £5,499.98.

Does that help?

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Thanks, yes it confirms then that the optional payment, the balloon payment is used by them to calculate my termination rights. I had used the total payments of the three year lease and set up costs and divided that by half, to get my 50% figure, as I didn't have a copy of that agreement and they have used the full amount of my three year lease plus the balloon payment and divided that by half to come to that total of almost five and a half grand. I still don't see how that's fair as I have not borrowed that money and it is not part of my lease agreement to pay it, so why they are allowed to use it in their calculation of the 50% liability, I truly don't understand. I will be better off waiting til I reach that mark then? I mean, why send it back and still pay as if I had it? I might as well have it if I've got to pay for it and vt with no liability at the five and a half k mark? Of course, at the time I tried to vt, I didn't know I was tied in to that figure, as I didn't have that paperwork. I had thought it was simply half of my lease payments, which, to be fair, is what it should be. Lesson learned, never again, I'm stuck paying for something I neither want nor need, cos my circumstances have changed and I've had to cancel my summer of travel in my caravan too. I guess that's life, as they say. Thank you

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Sorry Lynne, I had to think what you were on about but I think I understand where you are coming from.

So your 36 months + additional fees doesn't meet the 50% mark and you have to pay part of the optional purchase price is that what you are getting at?

So looking at it, it seems a bit sneaky of them because you have to continue the 36 monthly repayments and then hand the car back or effectively be penalised for VT'ing early and paying part of the optional payment.

I've not come across this type of HP agreement before where someone is in this position but on the face of it, it certainly looks a bit unfair because the balloon payment is an optional payment but you are being forced to pay it if you VT.

It's definitely something you could raise to the Ombudsman but I am not entirely sure they would side with you, unless something like this went to court.

Your monthly payments should have been higher so that the balloon payment is lower and your 50% mark ought to have been about the 18 month mark.

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Sorry Lynne, I had to think what you were on about but I think I understand where you are coming from.

So your 36 months + additional fees doesn't meet the 50% mark and you have to pay part of the optional purchase price is that what you are getting at?

So looking at it, it seems a bit sneaky of them because you have to continue the 36 monthly repayments and then hand the car back or effectively be penalised for VT'ing early and paying part of the optional payment.

I've not come across this type of HP agreement before where someone is in this position but on the face of it, it certainly looks a bit unfair because the balloon payment is an optional payment but you are being forced to pay it if you VT.

It's definitely something you could raise to the Ombudsman but I am not entirely sure they would side with you, unless something like this went to court.

Your monthly payments should have been higher so that the balloon payment is lower and your 50% mark ought to have been about the 18 month mark.

[MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION]. Thank you, yes, that is exactly right. You have summarised accurately the position I am in. Due to being past the half way mark of my three year lease, I consider myself past the 50% liability. Turns out that your description sneaky, fits exactly as effectively, they have removed my right of termination using the 50% formula, as you are indeed correct, I have to pay almost all of my 36 monthly payments to get to 50%, which ,surely is contrary to the spirit of the CCA , and surely hedging on being contrary to the act itself. If nothing else, raising it with the ombudsman might alert them to this practice and get some changes made to protect others from falling foul of the 50% rule, which it turns out is not 50% but somewhere around 95%! I'm not sure whether to challenge the validity of the agreement, given the ignature and name on it is not the salesman I dealt with and, given the t they actually told me they do not have an agreement with me! Thank you for all your help. I will VT when I reach the magic 5.4k and in the meantime, at least use the thing im paying for!! I hope anyone reading this thread gets use out of it. Thanks to [MENTION=49370]Kati[/MENTION] too.

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I've taken another look at it and I think I've confused myself a little bit. It looks a bit similar to a PCP agreement where on a PCP Agreement it is structured in a way so that you can only VT close the the end of the term of the agreement. Usually on a HP Agreement you can VT around the halfway mark of the term of the agreement but in your case you can't.

I don't think there is a set way of structuring a HP agreement or PCP but there are subtle differences between the two, maybe too technical to get into great detail about.

I think on this occasion you are better paying of the monthly amounts til you hit the 5.4K mark - I calculate 31 months will make it just short of the required amount.

You might have to chalk this one up to bad luck but maybe next time you take a car out on finance, be sure to check exactly what point you an VT, or just avoid RCI in the future

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

I've taken another look at it and I think I've confused myself a little bit. It looks a bit similar to a PCP agreement where on a PCP Agreement it is structured in a way so that you can only VT close the the end of the term of the agreement. Usually on a HP Agreement you can VT around the halfway mark of the term of the agreement but in your case you can't.

I don't think there is a set way of structuring a HP agreement or PCP but there are subtle differences between the two, maybe too technical to get into great detail about.

I think on this occasion you are better paying of the monthly amounts til you hit the 5.4K mark - I calculate 31 months will make it just short of the required amount.

You might have to chalk this one up to bad luck but maybe next time you take a car out on finance, be sure to check exactly what point you an VT, or just avoid RCI in the future

Good advice! Thank you....count down to the 31 month mark starts now...

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Good advice! Thank you....count down to the 31 month mark starts now...

@R0b further to this, you may recall that I said I didn't believe i'd actually ever signed an agreement and certainly, it had never been executed correctly as I'd never been given a copy. I also said that the signature on the copy I received by email, I thought was not my agreement, as the name on it was not the salesman I dealt with and the signature, I felt, had been lifted from my driving licence. I also mentioned that when I phoned them, they told me they had no record of an agreement with me but the vt department were adament they had one on front of them, which they then emailed to me and I forwarded to you via

@Kati. I followed your earlier advice and sent a postal request with a one pound cheque to request a legible copy. (DSAR). Today I have received my reply: "Unfortunately we are unable to locate any agreements with the information you have provided " They have put Na in the agreement number and my ref spaces. They have returned my request letter and cheque. I am of the opinion this means that I am indeed correct, they do not have any agreement with me? Or rather, I do not legally have an agreement with them? They have made me put my vt on hold, had me sign a new direct debit mandate, make costly arrangements to transport my car 400 miles to our new home, which we are now moving into in a couple of weeks, as I cancelled my plans to travel before moving into another house, on account of the fact that without undertaking the vt, I couldn't afford the holiday. Isn't what they've done fraud? Isn't it lying? Isn't it misrepresentation? Does this put me back in the position of being able to vt with no further financial liability? Surely, if by their own admission, they have no agreement with me, they cannot hold me liable for the sum needed to reach their 50% watershed figure? What do I do next? Thanks.

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

[MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION] further to this, you may recall that I said I didn't believe i'd actually ever signed an agreement and certainly, it had never been executed correctly as I'd never been given a copy. I also said that the signature on the copy I received by email, I thought was not my agreement, as the name on it was not the salesman I dealt with and the signature, I felt, had been lifted from my driving licence. I also mentioned that when I phoned them, they told me they had no record of an agreement with me but the vt department were adament they had one on front of them, which they then emailed to me and I forwarded to you via @Kati. I followed your earlier advice and sent a postal request with a one pound cheque to request a legible copy. (DSAR). Today I have received my reply: "Unfortunately we are unable to locate any agreements with the information you have provided " They have put Na in the agreement number and my ref spaces. They have returned my request letter and cheque. I am of the opinion this means that I am indeed correct, they do not have any agreement with me? Or rather, I do not legally have an agreement with them? They have made me put my vt on hold, had me sign a new direct debit mandate, make costly arrangements to transport my car 400 miles to our new home, which we are now moving into in a couple of weeks, as I cancelled my plans to travel before moving into another house, on account of the fact that without undertaking the vt, I couldn't afford the holiday. Isn't what they've done fraud? Isn't it lying? Isn't it misrepresentation? Does this put me back in the position of being able to vt with no further financial liability? Surely, if by their own admission, they have no agreement with me, they cannot hold me liable for the sum needed to reach their 50% watershed figure? What do I do next? Thanks.

[MENTION=23709]rob[/MENTION] did you see my further comment and question above? Thanks

[R0b]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Hi Lynne, it might be difficult to enforce if they have no signed agreement, why have they made you put another DD setup? If it were me I wouldn't have done that and just argued in the meantime but I understand you have to move, you should still seek to reclaim that back at a later date.

It would amount to fraud and misrepresentation, which if that was the case would allow you to rescind the contract and be put back in the previous position as before. They might argue that it was conducted on their standard terms so signature or no signature they would say you have agreed to their terms.

If the agreement was not properly executed, then I believe it becomes unenforceable unless ordered by a court order, but I could be wrong on that. I've tagged [MENTION=55034]nemesis45[/MENTION] to answer that question as he generally deal alot with improper execution and debt.

[nemesis45]

Re: VT and balloon payments

Hi Lynne, it might be difficult to enforce if they have no signed agreement, why have they made you put another DD setup? If it were me I wouldn't have done that and just argued in the meantime but I understand you have to move, you should still seek to reclaim that back at a later date.

It would amount to fraud and misrepresentation, which if that was the case would allow you to rescind the contract and be put back in the previous position as before. They might argue that it was conducted on their standard terms so signature or no signature they would say you have agreed to their terms.

If the agreement was not properly executed, then I believe it becomes unenforceable unless ordered by a court order, but I could be wrong on that. I've tagged @nemesis45 to answer that question as he generally deal alot with improper execution and debt.

You are correct [MENTION=71570]R0b[/MENTION].

There seems to be some confusion though [MENTION=86352]Lynne[/MENTION] in post #40 you mention sending a request for a copy of the alleged agreement together with a £1.00 fee an in brackets you have (DSAR ) Data Subject Access Request ( Data Protection Act 1998???? which has a fee of £10.00.????

In my opinion the statement that they have admitted that they have no agreement, the " DD set up (odd imo) I believe R0b is correct on the misrepresentation as well.

nem

[Lynne]

Re: VT and balloon payments

@rob. So, thanks for all this last summer. I have saved up and now I am closer to the 31 month we referred to, I have once again invoked the VT. True to form, they have made things difficult. I have done all the things you advised, this time, despite being advised to, I did not cancel my DD. I was told that the car would be collected approx 25 Nov, plus or minus a day or two.

The next DD was due today, 30 Nov, so, just in case, I left it in place. Lucky I did, as, after chasing them several times, they gave me a collection date of 21 Dec!! I informed them that I'd let the DVLA know that as of 25 Nov RCI were the registered keepers and....hey presto....they are suddenly coming to collect on 6th Dec! I've advised them to bring trade plates as I have confirmed with them that yes, the car is road worthy but not road legal, as informing DVLA that the car is not mine, means the road tax will be refunded to me, therefore not valid. I've advised them that I shall be invoking storage charges against them from 25 til collection.

I advised them the car was not supplied with the space saver spare wheel as we had to purchase one, therefore it won't be being returned with one. They have, verbally stated this is OK, I have asked for this in writing. They say they will be billing me for excess mileage if it is above the pro rata amount they calculate. I believe I am correct in saying they have no legal grounds for this? I believe I should not sign any documents proffered by the collection agents? I will be taking photos with that days newspaper. Is there anything else I should/should not do??? Many thanks