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Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

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  • Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

    I have posted on another thread some time ago about my daughter being charged with misconduct by the police, her then employer, in relation to an attendance at my home of a police civilian investigation officer in connection with an assault/public order issue that I reported. In essence, due to police errors, no charges were brought, the offender committed a further offence against my daughter and was later found guilty of a section 4a Public Order Act offence.

    In the interim, my daughter, a civilian employee disagreed with the investigator who insisted the original offence was civil (tort) and nothing to do with the police. Daughter was alleged to be unfit to deal with the public (she was one of those responding to and dealing with calls to the police on the 101 service) and charged with misconduct that dragged on for eight months until she was found guilty (of an offence that was worded differently than that she was originally charged with) . Because of the misconduct itself, the allegation that she was unfit to do her job and the multiple refusals of her request for temporary transfer to another department, she became so ill (multiple breakdowns but diagnosed with stress, anxiety and depression) that it was impossible for her to do her job. GP's advice was that it was a psychological issue and that in the GP's experience, my daughter would not recover whilst she remained in her job. She handed in her notice on 29 November, last employment date 28 December.

    She has been a member of Unison for twelve years. There were many times during the misconduct issue that she felt Unison was being less than helpful - the main thing was their insistence on treating the misconduct as a stand-alone issue that was nothing whatever to do with the background (briefly explained above). She filled in her Unison claim form re a potential employment tribunal in mid December, Unison "sat on" this until mid February despite daughter chasing it up several times, and now say their solicitor says there are no grounds for a constructive unfair dismissal claim.

    Because Unison were so tardy, on my daughter's behalf I took the matter up with ACAS, whose negotiator informed that the ACAS helpline had identified three grounds for a tribunal - constructive unfair dismissal, breach of contract and sexual discrimination/ harassment (I have asked for confirmation of whether it was discrimination or harassment). The police declined to negotiate and the 76 EC(c) was issued giving my daughter until 2 April to put in her ET1. So you can see the pressure here.

    What I am asking is can anyone advise about Unison's stance please? How is it possible that a Unison solicitor says there are no grounds for constructive unfair dismissal whilst overlooking the issues of breach of contract and sexual discrimination/harassment? Given the short time left to put in her ET1, any advice will be welcome.

    Thank you.
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

    Hi justace

    Did Unison's sols give reasons why they thought there were no grounds?

    I'll give [MENTION=26290]mariefab[/MENTION] a nudge.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb


    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.


    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

      Originally posted by justace View Post
      I have posted on another thread some time ago about my daughter being charged with misconduct by the police, her then employer, in relation to an attendance at my home of a police civilian investigation officer in connection with an assault/public order issue that I reported. In essence, due to police errors, no charges were brought, the offender committed a further offence against my daughter and was later found guilty of a section 4a Public Order Act offence.

      In the interim, my daughter, a civilian employee disagreed with the investigator who insisted the original offence was civil (tort) and nothing to do with the police. Daughter was alleged to be unfit to deal with the public (she was one of those responding to and dealing with calls to the police on the 101 service) and charged with misconduct that dragged on for eight months until she was found guilty (of an offence that was worded differently than that she was originally charged with) . Because of the misconduct itself, the allegation that she was unfit to do her job and the multiple refusals of her request for temporary transfer to another department, she became so ill (multiple breakdowns but diagnosed with stress, anxiety and depression) that it was impossible for her to do her job. GP's advice was that it was a psychological issue and that in the GP's experience, my daughter would not recover whilst she remained in her job. She handed in her notice on 29 November, last employment date 28 December.

      She has been a member of Unison for twelve years. There were many times during the misconduct issue that she felt Unison was being less than helpful - the main thing was their insistence on treating the misconduct as a stand-alone issue that was nothing whatever to do with the background (briefly explained above). She filled in her Unison claim form re a potential employment tribunal in mid December, Unison "sat on" this until mid February despite daughter chasing it up several times, and now say their solicitor says there are no grounds for a constructive unfair dismissal claim.

      Because Unison were so tardy, on my daughter's behalf I took the matter up with ACAS, whose negotiator informed that the ACAS helpline had identified three grounds for a tribunal - constructive unfair dismissal, breach of contract and sexual discrimination/ harassment (I have asked for confirmation of whether it was discrimination or harassment). The police declined to negotiate and the 76 EC(c) was issued giving my daughter until 2 April to put in her ET1. So you can see the pressure here.

      What I am asking is can anyone advise about Unison's stance please? How is it possible that a Unison solicitor says there are no grounds for constructive unfair dismissal whilst overlooking the issues of breach of contract and sexual discrimination/harassment? Given the short time left to put in her ET1, any advice will be welcome.

      Thank you.
      What reasons is the opponent's solicitor giving for not being 'constructive dismissal.'?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

        I am pasting herewith emails between Unison (2) and my daughter (1). The reason given is that her resignation was "too far away from the issues you outline". The "other issues" referred to in the email is that my daughter asked if she had a case against the employer for personal injury.

        Thank you

        Sent: Thursday, 25 February 2016, 16:56
        Subject: RE: your Case

        Hello xxxxxx
        The solicitor dealing with your case has rung me with some initial advice. He is now on leave and before he went on leave ( today) he was unable to write the full and detailed letter to me, when he does that it is checked by another colleague before being sent.
        So as I’ve said this is initial advice and he has given it in this way because you need to be aware of possible issues with deadlines.
        He does not think there is case for constructive dismissal. When he returns from leave he will explain why in detail but he is of the opinion that your resignation was too far away from the issues you outline. He will also give his opinion on the other aspects that you have asked about.
        The deadline issue is that IF there was a case for constructive dismissal the deadline for an application to the employment tribunal might be either the 27th of March OR the 27th of February. Part of the process to make a claim is that you have to go through Early Conciliation with ACAS, the first step is to fill in the appropriate form online. When this is done there is an automatic extension to the deadline. In order to protect your right to go to an employment tribunal if you wanted to on your own and to keep the best possible timescales his advice is that you submit an early conciliation form before the 27th feb. Its doesn’t take long. If you google early conciliation form you will see the site straight away.
        Regards
        UNISON Area Oganiser
        02380 249120
         
        Date: 26 February 2016 at 08:26:41 GMT
        To:
        xxxxxx
        RE: your Case

        The February 27th date as a deadline is a worse case scenario and you have been advised of this with the best intentions. Its up to you whether or not you take that advice.
        Thompsons have no idea of any issue with your branch. They are qualified solicitors who have been involved in employment law for many years, when they have written their advice it has to go via another solicitor for double check. As soon as the solicitor returns and completes the advice I will get in touch with you again.
        Regards
        UNISON Area Oganiser
        02380 249120


        Sent: 25 February 2016 17:40
        Subject:
        your Case
          
        Dear Unison
        Thank you for the information below.
        The branch of Unison at Hampshire Constabulary "sat on " my tribunal application form from 17 December 2015. When I chased it up more than one month later, xxxxxx's response was "what's your hurry, there's no rush" (or words to that effect). Given that I knew I had three months less one day from 28 December 2015 to formally commence my tribunal application, it was unreasonable to put me in the position where, in February, I had to chase up my application to Unison yet again. Similarly this person "sat on" my out-of-work subscription fee cheque, such that you yourself had to recently ask for the money I had already paid. The same person untruthfully wrote on my claim form that I handed in my notice without discussion with Unison. I had, of course, been in contact with and was advised by Unison throughout and even though I followed advice (that Unison supplied) to discuss my thoughts about resignation with HR, no one at HR would speak to me. There is evidence that xxxxx (HR manager) later said that the reason was their conflict of interest.
        Given that Unison left me in the position where I was seriously worried about lack of legal advice and lack of Unison support (ie I felt that Unison left me "high and dry" and "out on a limb") I consulted ACAS, who identified three grounds for my potential claim against Hampshire Constabulary - Constructive unfair dismissal, sexual harassment and breach of contract. I wonder why it comes as no surprise that the Unison solicitor (who went on leave today and is therefore not available to justify his position) contradicts the opinion of ACAS, the employment law experts.
        Yours sincerely
        xxxxxx

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

          The reason given is that her resignation was "too far away from the issues you outline".

          Please see no. 4 in the thread, where I've posted the emails between Unison and daughter.

          Thanks

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

            Apologies for being dim, but could you please explain 76 EC(c)?

            (I've looked at ET rules, but can't see it)
            CAVEAT LECTOR

            This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

            You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
            Cohen, Herb


            There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
            gets his brain a-going.
            Phelps, C. C.


            "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
            The last words of John Sedgwick

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

              Also, the notes on pages 53/54 of https://www.unison.org.uk/content/up...ogue205303.pdf are interesting.

              At what level Unison is this area organiser?
              CAVEAT LECTOR

              This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

              You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
              Cohen, Herb


              There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
              gets his brain a-going.
              Phelps, C. C.


              "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
              The last words of John Sedgwick

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                She is a Unison South east area organiser in the Unison Office on the floor above the firm of solicitors, so higher than the branch secretary and branch chairman in the office within the police.

                Thanks for the link, I'm about to look at it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                  Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                  Apologies for being dim, but could you please explain 76 EC(c)?

                  (I've looked at ET rules, but can't see it)
                  ???
                  c
                  CAVEAT LECTOR

                  This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                  You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                  Cohen, Herb


                  There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                  gets his brain a-going.
                  Phelps, C. C.


                  "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                  The last words of John Sedgwick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                    It looks as though it's me who is dim! I seem to have mistaken a file number provided by the ACAS negotiator as being the number of the early conciliation certificate. Sorry!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                      Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                      Also, the notes on pages 53/54 of https://www.unison.org.uk/content/up...ogue205303.pdf are interesting
                      Page 53 - daughter has complied with both requirements re a disciplinary hearing and a grievance.
                      Page 54 - The Unison regional organiser could (should??) have told daughter that she would obtain advice from Unison's solicitor (not applicable since it's the solicitor's advice that is being questioned) or Unison's own legal department.

                      Thanks indeed - this is something daughter can take up tomorrow with the Unison regional organiser.
                      Last edited by Kati; 6th March 2016, 16:08:PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                        It just feels 'fishy'

                        Why would a solicitor be offering advice via the Unison bod?

                        I would have thought they'd want to deal with daughter directly. (I don't know for certain, mind}
                        CAVEAT LECTOR

                        This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                        You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                        Cohen, Herb


                        There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                        gets his brain a-going.
                        Phelps, C. C.


                        "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                        The last words of John Sedgwick

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                          You're right, I feel. The entire experience has been and continues to be "fishy" or worse. When I first approached Unison helpline to try to get help for daughter, I was told "Unison within the police don't like complaints against the police". This we have taken as meaning that they are going to put every obstacle in the way to try to prevent her bringing a case against the police - as it is proving.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                            Do you know, for absolutely certain, that Thompsons have been involved (ie not just taking the Unison rep's word for it).
                            CAVEAT LECTOR

                            This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                            You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                            Cohen, Herb


                            There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                            gets his brain a-going.
                            Phelps, C. C.


                            "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                            The last words of John Sedgwick

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Difference of opinion between Unison and ACAS

                              Originally posted by charitynjw View Post
                              Do you know, for absolutely certain, that Thompsons have been involved (ie not just taking the Unison rep's word for it).
                              No - I've added this to the list of questions for her to ask in the morning.

                              Comment

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