Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

[nemesis45]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

I really don't know what has happened about the £300 because I haven't been kept up to date. The school told me they were cancelling the cheque and that was it, to leave it with them. That's all the information I know. Yes it was for an event at xmas

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Sorry I'm new to this and haven't read your question properly. Yes we were given credit for a service.

If the school cancels the cheque which I presume is for said service is the school accepting liability for the debt?

Also ha your name now been removed from the PTA's bank account?

nem

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

I don't know the answer to either of them questions but I presume that they will have removed me from the bank account. It's very easy to do, all they need to do is take in the latest statement and proof of ID for someone else to be added. That's all I had to do with it and they didn't tell the last PTA that they had been removed from the bank account by post or anything.

[nemesis45]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

I don't know the answer to either of them questions but I presume that they will have removed me from the bank account. It's very easy to do, all they need to do is take in the latest statement and proof of ID for someone else to be added. That's all I had to do with it and they didn't tell the last PTA that they had been removed from the bank account by post or anything.

How long ago did all this fire off?

nem

[Openlaw15]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

I am a real worrier naturally but I need help and/or advice please, as I have been reported to the police and I don't know what to do and I am sat listening to every little bang thinking that they have come to take me away, can I just say that I don't actually think I've done anything wrong but as I heard the word police I freaked out. Anyway, this is a long story but here goes
I have been in charge of the PTA for 10 months: during this time I have run many events and assisted the school in other matters that are not PTA related.
Anyway in December a cheque was posted to a company with no paye and it was for the wrong amount by a few hundred pounds. I didn't send this cheque, I have written the cheque nor have I signed the cheque. This is where the whole sorry mess started.
I was asked to take the books to the school for them to look at. They were a mess, a real mess! I mean like you wouldn't beleive. Just scraps of paper and there are many reciepts missing. I mean loads, more missing than we actually have. But they were kept within the school and I said I am not taking full responsibility for them going missing as I do have witnesses who can state that they have seen me take these receipts to school. Anyway because the books were a real mess, an accountancy was employeed to look at the books.
I did bank any money for ten months. I can't actually beleuve I did it I really can't now I have looked back and thought what an idiot I have been. I have wanted to go and bank money and said I was going to but when I've arrived at the bank there has been a queue or I've forgotten the pay in book or whatever and I've just taken the money home. I have never hid I have had money at home from the other member of the PTA and she has known what o have had the amount etc. Is this a criminal offence? The head of the school seems to think that it is because this is what she is saying where my actual real wrong doing is. didn't hear anything further from the school, they have said they don't think I've stolen anything either. Anyway because of the descrepancies in the account and no reciepts they were advised to contact the police, which is what the head teacher has done: I inly know this because I emailed and asked how everything went with the accountancy because I haven't heard anything from the school yet and she made me step down from my roles within the school.
in her email she hasn't accused me of anything nor told me what I have been reported actually for. She said if she hears anything she will let me know and that was it. So I don't know what I'm accused of etc so I'm in total limbo and scared to death that the police are going to be looking at me for something like fraud or embezzlement
What do you think is going to happen? What can I do if the police do come and arrest me? Will I be given time to sort out childcare for my kids? I'm petrified they will come in the middle of the night or first thing and take me away with the children seeing this. I don't want them to be damaged by my stupid mistakes. I am so desperate to proof my innocence and for this to go away. I am petrefied that somehwere along the lines without realising it I have done/said something that could make this a criminal offence and not even know I was doing it

First of all stop all this worrying before you end up in hospital with a serious medical condition. A fiduciary means some form of relationship of trust. It just means that you have a responsibility to other persons relying on you reasonable skills and abilities. An accountant for example has fiduciary relationship to the person who employs them and this professional could be sued where they have done something wrong (ie breach of fiduciary relationship). Are you just aparent helping the school out in a chair role? Is this chair role paid or voluntary?

Fraud/ breach of fiduciary relationship?

It is unlikely to be a criminal offence, ie it is unlikely to be fraud as all the elements of this offence must be satisfied. It may not have been wise to offer a gift of the money allegedly missing but it's natural if you know you've done nothing wrong and want the matter to go away. So no, you're not going to be woken up by police tomorrow with battering ram against your door, arrested and taken away. Unless you have the skills of the average accountant etc you're simply likely to make mistakes. The police or the Crown Prosecution Service have to prove you're guilty, not you prove you're innocent. You do not need any defences for fraud unless fraud can be proved against you.

Even if you did owe a duty of care, ieyour role were regarded as a fiduciary, it does not mean that you would have breached that duty. Suing someone is not so easy and not every person by the court's standards will be in breach...as it requires a very high standard, ie compared against someone in the same role (the objective standard). More is expected from professionals and less from non professionals. How much money is said to have been misappropriated as per the allegations against you? Why is your role as chair so financially involved as though it were part of your employ tasks? Do you work alongside the school's accountant, do you liaise with the accountant where there are complicated matters to deal with etc. Do you have any specialist numeracy ability, ie a degree in maths or other advanced level qualification? The claimant must prove you have breached a duty and you do not need defences unless all breached is proved.

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

It's around 5 weeks ago now

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In fact make that almost 7 weeks. It will be 7 weeks tomorrow!

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

Can you tell me what happened with your case please? Or is it still an ongoing matter? Thanks

[nemesis45]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

It's around 5 weeks ago now

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In fact make that almost 7 weeks. It will be 7 weeks tomorrow!

I think you would have heard by now if anything was to be done.
Do you have children at the school?

nem

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

I would just like to add that there is something more that I forgot to add and this is pretty important and I can't beleive I missed it out! But my head is literally all over the place and I just keep thinking things that I don't think are actually there!
We did an event which the children were sponsored for and they were rewarded for this by a charity.
Anyway, the school took the sponser forms, the school took the money back in and the school ordered the awards. At no time did I get given the forms. Anyway, it came to counting the money - there was myself and 5 other people present bearing in mind. I asked can I have the sponser forms so I can tally up, I was told no didn't need them it didn't matter.
I asked again and asked if anyone had counted any money, I was told no that they hadn't and all that happened was, they handed the money in and it was marked on a form that they had given back money - not the actual amount.
So myself and the others counted the money and then we told the school what we had. A little bit more came in but it wasn't even £100 so it was added to the total. If this person had counted the money, surely they would have raised this issue there and then and not left it months!
Like I say I have more than enough witness's that can vouch for how much was there and what was said to me. The head said she thinks it's just a simple mistake and that no one has taken any of this money.
When the rewards arrived I was asked to pass them onto the classes with a list of children/ I did this. There were extras left over and I passed them back to school. They are no where to be seen now. However, the school have accepted that I did give them back to them.
This is just one massive mess from start to finish and I know none of it looks good on me at all! But like I say, I cannot tell you enough how much I haven't taken a single penny!

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

Yes I have two children at the school! Which is what concerns me even more about this situation. All the other local schools are full and there isn't places anywhere in schools that are within reasonable travelling distance. I'm not sure because I think it was only reported to the police on Monday in all honesty. Does that have any bearing on how soon I am likely to be contacted? I have been told that this process can go on for months.... Can I just say a massive thank you to you for your guidance in this situation xxxx

[mariefab]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

These PTA arrangements can be surprisingly shambolic.
Decades ago I agreed to take over from the outgoing treasurer at my kids primary school.
I was presented with 2 enormous carrier bags. Inside them I found a petty cash tin containing money, several shoe boxes stuffed with receipts and other incomprehensible scraps of paper and a quality of reporter notebooks containing random bits of information about incoming and outgoing funds covering the past 7 years.

After spending about a week trying, and mostly failing, to make sense of the mess, I spoke to the Head who's only response was to do my best to sort things out going forward. As far as I'm aware it was never even mentioned to the outgoing treasurer.

The point I'm trying to make is that when schools decide to depend on volunteers to organise these matters without oversight they can't really come back and blame the volunteers when things go tits up.

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

Hi auto law! Thank you so much for your reply! I have only just seen this and you have made me feel so much better, just as the others have.
I have never been paid for the role and no I don't not have a degree in maths or anything like that. I do have my own business but I don't do my own accounts my mother in law does them for me and always has done. I have never said I do my own accounts or anything like that. I think they have taken me at face value and just gone - off you go get it done. Never worked with the business manager etc either or had a meeting with her

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

Thanks for your reply
I have never been paid for the role
We did write terms and conditions of the role but it was a draft - we never signed them off at a meeting etc
If the matter was reported on Monday if the police want to speak to me how soon can I expect them to want to do this does anyone know?
I have calmed down a little from yesterday and managed to get some sleep last night but not very much!
I feel very alone in this situation and like I say just scared to bring the shame upon my family.
I know I have messed up I really do but I feel like I have been treated like a criminal when I haven't actually done anything on purpose
Yes I have been stupid but then I started looking online and was reading about PTA chairs been accused of things like me and then going to prison however, they had all admitted to wrongdoing etc so I think I may have looked too much into things but I think because I haven't been accused of Althing out right j am panicking and expecting the worst possible outcome
I was thinking the shortfall is £300 but the head thinks it more like £600-£800 because of the lack of receipts
Has the accountant who audited the books found something that I don't know or realise I have done? I just don't know! And I appreocyae that none of you can answer that question for me but then I was thinking perhaps the governors decided to call the police
I just don't know and clearly I'm driving myself insane

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

First of all stop all this worrying before you end up in hospital with a serious medical condition. A fiduciary means some form of relationship of trust. It just means that you have a responsibility to other persons relying on you reasonable skills and abilities. An accountant for example has fiduciary relationship to the person who employs them and this professional could be sued where they have done something wrong (ie breach of fiduciary relationship). Are you just aparent helping the school out in a chair role? Is this chair role paid or voluntary?

Fraud/ breach of fiduciary relationship?

It is unlikely to be a criminal offence, ie it is unlikely to be fraud as all the elements of this offence must be satisfied. It may not have been wise to offer a gift of the money allegedly missing but it's natural if you know you've done nothing wrong and want the matter to go away. So no, you're not going to be woken up by police tomorrow with battering ram against your door, arrested and taken away. Unless you have the skills of the average accountant etc you're simply likely to make mistakes. The police or the Crown Prosecution Service have to prove you're guilty, not you prove you're innocent. You do not need any defences for fraud unless fraud can be proved against you.

Even if you did owe a duty of care, ieyour role were regarded as a fiduciary, it does not mean that you would have breached that duty. Suing someone is not so easy and not every person by the court's standards will be in breach...as it requires a very high standard, ie compared against someone in the same role (the objective standard). More is expected from professionals and less from non professionals. How much money is said to have been misappropriated as per the allegations against you? Why is your role as chair so financially involved as though it were part of your employ tasks? Do you work alongside the school's accountant, do you liaise with the accountant where there are complicated matters to deal with etc. Do you have any specialist numeracy ability, ie a degree in maths or other advanced level qualification? The claimant must prove you have breached a duty and you do not need defences unless all breached is proved.

I did not have any qualifications but I do own my own business and perhaps they have taken me at face value and just presumed that I knew what I was doing

I am seriously in a panic and just waiting for that knock on the door

I have spoken to a retired barrister and he is adermant that the police more than likely will not into the matter - but I thought that they had 5 days before telling you they would not investigate it any further

I have asked the head of she has heard anything back and no information has been forthcoming. I don't understand why she wouldn't talk to me, unless this is a criminal investigation and perhaps she has been advised not to

I have been told by everyone on the post to calm down and likely the police won't come in. I understand that completely but I can't help worrying. I have children and they are obviously my main concern. I would hate for them to have to witness me even talking to the police never mind seeing me so upset

I just don't know what to do now. I know it's a waiting game! I really appreciate that but I just can't stop worrying.

I have phoned a helpine today just for someone to talk to about the situation

I guess I am so worried as I do have bad credit in the past and haven't always paid bills on time etc and I am scared that this could be used against me.

I know I have really, really messed up by not banking the money and not keeping a tight hold of things and I was respected within the school so now I'm worrying that this will add to me been dishonest to them etc

I have said in the past I was going to bank money and haven't. The head has said that this is why she was concerned about the misappropriation of funds

when the head first asked about missing money it was £800. Then I queried it with her and she accepted that if anything it was £300. I offered to donate this money to ensure that there wasn't a shortfall and yes to make this matter go away. Of course I wanted it to go away I still do!

I have never told anyone there is more money in the bank than there is. Yes I have said at one point we had more funds that we actually had but that was due to my own mistake not realising that there were actual coatings to come out of the funds that hadn't been taken into account.

I just hope that the police see this!

I'm not sure if the head has jumped the gun a little bit because fingers maybe could be pointed at her for not keeping a better eye on things

Never had a meeting with the school business manager etc

We did write a terms of guidance this time last year. It was a draft of how things should be run: we never signed this off in a meeting, nor did we all agree to adhere to it. This is what the head is using as 'evidence' I suppose that what I have done is wrong. I do not have a copy of this document as unfortunately, the laptop was lost in a fire. There is evidence of this and the school is fully aware, as they have seen the damaged laptop.

The other lady who is the member of the PTA had a small, very small fire and the laptop burnt in parts and can no longer be used and that's where the document was

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You won't be going to prison either xxx

Fidicuary duty is just basically the school trust you to look after the money and you don't do it very well.

Thank you, I think I have finally managed to figure out how to message people back!
Still in a massive panics and I think I will be for sometime to come, as stated I have asked the head of she has heard anything and what I'm actually been accused of and she hasn't been forthcoming with any information. I am not sure if perhaps she has jumped the gun and doesn't really know herself what I am been accused of.

[Terrified please help me]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

These PTA arrangements can be surprisingly shambolic.
Decades ago I agreed to take over from the outgoing treasurer at my kids primary school.
I was presented with 2 enormous carrier bags. Inside them I found a petty cash tin containing money, several shoe boxes stuffed with receipts and other incomprehensible scraps of paper and a quality of reporter notebooks containing random bits of information about incoming and outgoing funds covering the past 7 years.

After spending about a week trying, and mostly failing, to make sense of the mess, I spoke to the Head who's only response was to do my best to sort things out going forward. As far as I'm aware it was never even mentioned to the outgoing treasurer.

The point I'm trying to make is that when schools decide to depend on volunteers to organise these matters without oversight they can't really come back and blame the volunteers when things go tits up.

Thank you for your comments. Yes when we took over there were no proper accounts and we were just told to leave it and carry on going forward. I think because I had such a good relationship with the head she said she thought I was a friend, hasn't worked in my favour at all.

In hindsight I did become too involved and I really regret this now!

Yes she did say to me I bet you think is unfair because it's not a paid role but I have to take it seriously and cover her own back. She said she wouldn't hesitate to take it to the police as she wasn't prepared to lose her job over it.

She has an offstead inspection looming any day so again I'm not sure if this has added to how seriously she has actually taken it.

I have been dishonest along the way but not to try and conceal me stealing or anything. Just trying to conceal that I had messed up with the books and not banking money! It was never here you go and I've faked loads of documents or whatever,

It's just such a mess!

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I think you would have heard by now if anything was to be done.
Do you have children at the school?

nem

Can I ask what happened with your case please? Also thank you for your help! I really appreciate it

[nemesis45]

Re: Advice needed urgently please - legal matter

Thank you for your comments. Yes when we took over there were no proper accounts and we were just told to leave it and carry on going forward. I think because I had such a good relationship with the head she said she thought I was a friend, hasn't worked in my favour at all.

In hindsight I did become too involved and I really regret this now!

Yes she did say to me I bet you think is unfair because it's not a paid role but I have to take it seriously and cover her own back. She said she wouldn't hesitate to take it to the police as she wasn't prepared to lose her job over it.

She has an offstead inspection looming any day so again I'm not sure if this has added to how seriously she has actually taken it.

I have been dishonest along the way but not to try and conceal me stealing or anything. Just trying to conceal that I had messed up with the books and not banking money! It was never here you go and I've faked loads of documents or whatever,

It's just such a mess!

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Can I ask what happened with your case please? Also thank you for your help! I really appreciate it

The individual concerned had " retained" some £2k of funds at home, I was made aware of the problem when
a trader informed that a cheque had been returned unpaid.
Discussion with the head and a senior governor after which we invited the person to attend a meeting where
the person would be required to explain the events ( 0n the advice of the Charity Commissioners I had informed
police and obtained an incident number.

The explanation give was " been too busy !" "post office was closed" " I've got all the money at home "

bearing mind that £ 700 was £1 coins and small change I asked for the money to be brought to me at
the school by 12 noon that day. This did not happen however the bank phoned me to tell me that £2k

had been deposited in large denomination notes.

We conclude that this person was not to hold any office within the school a vote decided no police action

nem