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1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

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  • 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

    Hi everyone..

    1st Credit have been attempting to claim a business overdraft of £2,374.97 I had with HSBC for the past year.. They seem to be more persistant than MKDP so I think I need to step up a gear or two as again, the reasons for this were unfair and unreasonable in the first place.

    The account originally consisted of a Commercial Credit Card that stood at £1447.68. I originally asked for a debt card when I opened this account but the manager insisted that a Commercial Card would make it easier for me to manage my business. It was originally a charge card that had to be paid off each month, which was somewhat unrealistic for a start up. I asked for it to be changed to a credit card, whilst still enquiring whether I could change it for a debit card so I could access my own money without being charged £3 for a cash withdrawl. Of course, when HSBC closed my personal account, I couldn't access any cash without paying for the privilage! The banks just want people and companies to rack up a debt..

    The rest of the balance consisted of unauthorised overdraft charges (£624.39 at the time when HSBC transferred the balance of the credit card to my bank account) where HSBC had made my account unusable over a period of about 6 months. In January 2014, HSBC put this commercial card balance onto my already overdrawn business account and continued to charge further overdraft fees (at the rate of £8 a day, if memory serves) until April 2014 when they shut the account down. They then started their internal debt collection proceedures demanding the whole lot in one go.

    Fast forward to March 2015 when I received two letters (same envelope) one from 1st Credit and the other claiming to be from HSBC claiming that the account had been assigned to 1st Credit. Fast forward to now and their solicitors recently sent me a copy of my statements as a proof of how the arrears accrued.. Well, if anything, it proves that they accrued due to HSBC charging me excessive amounts a month, compounding the unauthorised overdraft and then lumping the credit card onto the account, effectively putting the account into an unrecoverable state. It still doesn't prove they own the debt though..

    Going back through paperwork, I was overdrawn for the month of June 2013 apart from the 3rd June when I put £100 in to cover the overdraft from the the previous month. Why did I end up overdrawn? A £152 charge to my account for the previous month which bounced payments, though they were still happy to take payment for the commercial card. So I ended up overdrawn for the month again and struggling to keep the account positive and infront of payments.. I did make a complaint to HSBC and they did, much to my disbelief, refund these charges the following month (July) but it still made me overdrawn for the full month of June except for one day at the beginning.

    I also received a letter dated June 2013 from HSBC notifying me of changes to their price lists and terms and condition that would take effect on 1st September 2013. This was a Sunday and I was overdrawn then too as a result of my commercial card payment going out. I made a payment into this account to get it back to positive territory on 2nd Sept only to be charged another £40 the following day and so the cycle went on, £88 in November (plus a refund of the same amount?), £189 in December, £173.50 in December, £294.55 in January, £93.50 in March, though there was also a refund of £88 so I have no idea what they were doing here, and finally charges of £165.50 in April but also refunds of £160, again I don't know what they were doing here..

    By now, I had pretty much given up trying to maintain this account. Funnily enough, the advice the bank manager gave to me when I first started to get into difficulty was that I should let the business account go and save my personal account as my credit rating was affected by a personal account. My income was going into my business account at the time so it wasn't very good advice..

    Would I be able to argue that this falls into the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1994 via Forst/Burnell, or some other means. I'm not sure if there were any further changes to the business account tc and cs between September 2013 and April 2014, when the account was closed..

    It is too easy for banks to just charge people to the point of no return. And to be able to just sell these to some vultures (who don't prove they own the debt) who think they have struck gold and write if off as a tax expense is just plain wrong. They seem to treat people like their slaves instead of customers..

    Thanks for your guidance..
    Daniel
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

    Was your comany a ltd company and did you give the bank any personal guarantees??

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

      Hi Judge..

      no, sole trader.. No guarantees given.. I opened the account for a franchise but the main company went into liquidation about six months later, which was inconvenient! That didn't affect me though as I just went back to couriering..

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

        Originally posted by wesd252 View Post
        Hi Judge..

        no, sole trader.. No guarantees given.. I opened the account for a franchise but the main company went into liquidation about six months later, which was inconvenient! That didn't affect me though as I just went back to couriering..
        Strikes me that the bank gave reasonable advice on your personal current account, would
        it not have been wise to keep your personal salary I that account rather than putting it at
        risk in the business account?
        nem

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

          Possibly, I don't know.. everything was a mess at the time and I was trying to keep everything afloat, save up money I didn't have to pay taxes, keep money aside for VAT, keep a roof over my head etc.. It was an incredibly stressful time so you sometimes don't think clearly when the world is on top of your shoulders.. I've always been self employed so I was putting invoices in with the company I was working with at the time.. I wasn't making enough to cover everything..

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

            Originally posted by wesd252 View Post
            Possibly, I don't know.. everything was a mess at the time and I was trying to keep everything afloat, save up money I didn't have to pay taxes, keep money aside for VAT, keep a roof over my head etc.. It was an incredibly stressful time so you sometimes don't think clearly when the world is on top of your shoulders.. I've always been self employed so I was putting invoices in with the company I was working with at the time.. I wasn't making enough to cover everything..
            A familiar story I'm sorry to say!

            What is 1st Cruds current tack on this, are you getting multiple phone call on a daily/ weekly basis,
            multiple e-mails or texts?
            You traded as " sole trader" not a limited company?
            Did you have any form of insurances in place with the
            bank or elsewhere.

            I suggest making a " Subject Access Request to the bank this requires it
            to provide all the " personal data" it holds on you in relation to all the
            accounts you had/have with the bank ( as sole trader this should be
            pretty much everything.).

            There is a £10 statutory fee to pay a Cheque or Postal Order endorsed
            " For Statutory Fee Only".

            The bank has 40 days to comply. Use the template from the forum library for this.

            Address to the banks Data Controller at the head office address.
            May be we can see what could be unfair then.

            nem

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

              Hi Nem.. thx for replying..

              Sole trader, trading as etc.. I didn't have any insurance policy in place.. I wish I had never started it to be honest.. Things have been in a consistent decline since then. I thought it would be beneficial but it has been the complete opposite.. When I look back over the past 5 years I can't help wishing I did things differently.. Hindsight and all that.. I tend to believe one thing leads to another and despite my best efforts to make positive things happen, they seem to end up negative.. Kind of plays with your mind after a while.. This year started out stressful, then showed some real potential for the first time in ages until my van broke down and got caught up in a police investigation (dodgy garage - destroyed my van's engine, as well as other people's vehicles.. long story, as well as their stretch in jail!).. That's the luck I seem to have at the moment.. I hope all this bad luck means something good is around the corner.. Anyway, sidetracking..

              1st crudit first contacted me in March this year.. I've gone through their letter demands process, numerous phone calls etc.. I CCA'd them in August, I think - I need to check, and they replied stating that the account was an overdraft so this didn't apply but they would get in contact with HSBC etc.. So in other words, they didn't have anything to hand despite sending me all of their threatening letters on a weekly basis for six months or so.. At the end of last week, they sent a copy of my bank statements with a letter (dated 21/10) stating that this showed how the arrears accrued and that they now look forward to my payment proposals. I guess that meant that they were in contact with the worlds local money laundering bank.. (I'll change that comment if needs be lol..) It's black and white though. I was trying to keep the account positive, out of the overdraft. It wasn't overdrawn from my spending..

              It also stated that they would hold 'my' account for 14 days and would continue to look to secure all monies due if I don't respond.. It was actually signed by someone in their legal department, which makes a change from the usual computer!

              I did a SAR on my accounts with HSBC a while ago when my personal accounts started to fall apart, so I do have that to hand.. I need to dig it out.. 1st crudit are also chasing me for my personal loan (another thread) and as a result, I've been thinking about re-opening my complaint with the FOS against HSBC (to do with my personal account as they said that my account couldn't be assessed under the UTTCR 1999 (?) but this has since changed) but I don't know if that would do anything..

              Anyway, that is some background..

              Daniel

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                Well you don't do things by halves do you xx

                Do you want me to sort out your accounts - I can merge them together (so everything is under one name) and email you with a new password ?

                In January 2014, HSBC put this commercial card balance onto my already overdrawn business account and continued to charge further overdraft fees (at the rate of £8 a day, if memory serves) until April 2014 when they shut the account down.
                Presumably the overdraft fees were more expensive than the interest on the card ? Need t&c's for account and for the ''commercial'' card. A SAR is a good idea - surprised you haven't already SAR'd HSBC actually ref the loan.

                It sounds like offsetting, but did they offset while you were already overdrawn ?
                #staysafestayhome

                Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                  Hi Amethyst.. how are u? Well I hope..

                  When it rains it doesn't just pour.. It monsoons! And then dumps a Category 5 hurricane on me! It's been a frustrating year to say the least, mainly because after finally making something really positive happen that would have helped me get back on my feet after a difficult time, the van's engine broke and triggered off another set of events that has cost me a lot of money in lost earnings over the past 5 months or so.. I couldn't borrow the money from the bank to repair it because of my credit rating etc (MKDP still have defaults on my file, despite loosing in court).

                  However, I'm finally about to get it sorted out but there are other things in the background that I'm more concerned about, mainly my Mums health.. So a lot on my shoulders at the moment.. I'm trying to pull a major rabbit out of the hat in the form of a shop on Facebook in the background to supplement income too.. That's all experimental though..

                  Merging my accounts would be helpful, thank you.. If possible under my old name wesd25.. I forgot the password and didn't write it down. Funnily enough, I was going to use the password for other things as it was a good one, so good that I couldn't remember it!

                  I did SAR all of my accounts with HSBC so I do have the business side of it in a box.. £8 a day for an unauthorised overdraft is somewhat unreasonable isn't it..? I think the interest on the card was a standard amount 18% or so, not to mention the cash withdraw fees of £3 a time. Again, I did ask for a debit card when I opened the account.. Easy to understand why they refused and put me onto a credit facility.. Ironic as I didn't ask for it..

                  When you say offsetting, do you mean when HSBC transferred the card balance to my bank account? It was overdrawn by over £600 (all charges) when they applied the card balance to it, and they still carried on charging for the following couple of months before they shut it down. There were refunds too so it was a little confusing as to what they were doing.. Maybe they were bouncing their own charges, then charging for it!

                  With regards to the loan (that was a personal loan, not business related - I've never had a business loan), HSBC actually admitted that they owed me around £1600 for the insurance policy on it but they wouldn't pay it to me as the account had already defaulted and gone to their DCAs.. I was trying to recover that at the time to pay a tax bill (priority debt).

                  Now I've just thought, Nem mentioned an insurance policy.. I assumed he meant a life insurance policy or something like that but he probably meant a card protection policy of some kind..? I'd have to look that one up as I'm not sure..

                  I found some amended ts&cs for the account dated June 2013 for the account.. I'll dig around my boxes and try and find some for the card. I did find the agreement for it..

                  It's a funny one this.. HSBC merged an unauthorised overdraft consisting of charges with a commercial credit card balance into the overdraft and then wanted the whole amount back in one go.. These are the last two problems I have from HSBC.. I've been trying to keep things off my back long enough this year to get myself back on my feet again but it hasn't worked out how I had planned this year..

                  Hopefully, I'm about to start over again, for the 735th time!

                  I hadn't realised it was so late.... Thanks again for your guidance.. I've just signed your petition too.. £155 is a lump to find, let alone £255!

                  Cheers,
                  Daniel
                  Last edited by wesd25; 27th October 2015, 09:20:AM. Reason: s.p.e.l.l.i.n.g!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                    I've been focusing on getting my mum back to health but I guess I'd better get myself into gear and reply to these people before the 14 day deadline too.. Preferably something along the lines of 'there's a nice big cliff, take a running jump, head first..'

                    This is a copy of the last two letters I received from 1st crudit, the first one was a reply to my CCA (I know they say it was an overdraft but it was originally just charges that put the account into an unauthorised overdraft and a credit card - which was previously a charge card - that was later transferred onto the business bank account before HSBC closed the account down..).

                    The second one had a copy of my bank statements attached to it. I guess it meant that 1st crudit were in contact with HSBC, however, they haven't produced a default notice or anything like that, not that I've asked for one yet, I was going to save that in case it got to court..

                    Their letters claiming assignment arrived in the same envelope and you can tell that they've been printed on the same printer. The HSBC letter is not an official HSBC letterhead so it hasn't come from HSBC's office. That seems to be the way these people do things but I don't see the difference between this and me sending a letter to 1st Credit saying they owe me x amount and claiming it comes from another bank.. Still don't understand how this is allowed..

                    Again, the bank statements show very clearly that I was attempting to keep the account in a positive balance to avoid going into an unauthorised overdraft in order to avoid fees. Then the credit card transfer to the account took place when the account was over £600 and that was it, game over for the account and they wanted the whole lot back in one go..

                    As I mentioned above, the account was overdrawn towards the end of May 13, for the month of June 13, apart from one day at the beginning and into July. During June, I received a letter and leaflet from HSBC, dated June 2013, notifying me of changes to prices/ts&cs etc that were to take affect on Sept 1st 13. I was also overdrawn, all be it by a very small amount, on 1st September. I don't know if this would be relevant under the UTTCR though as this was technically a business account and not a personal account..

                    I made a complaint in early July that they had been completely unreasonable with their charges and HSBC did refund them in the first week of July.. At the time, I was trying to find a job after caring for my mum who was recovering from cancer but only found one in October when I went back to couriering - which was a last resort.. However, I ended up opening up an account with another bank as this account was slipping back into the overdraft. Plus, as HSBC had already closed my personal account and I was receiving demands all over the place, my accountant suggested moving my banking elsewhere to take my earnings away from HSBC..

                    My life used to be so simple and straight forward! I really need to get back to that..

                    What do you think? Is there anything here that I could use or have I been done over by 1st crudit now..?

                    Cheers,
                    Daniel
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                      Ok some points, the " Notices of Assignment " can come from the original creditor and / or the debt purchaser, when a portfolio of debts is sold to a company such as 1st Credit the creditors often authorise the debt purchaser to send its NOA with the purchasers.
                      Nothing wrong in that.
                      An overdraft not being a regulated agreement does not require as default notice as such, a Demand for Immediate Payment in Full is issued and if not complied with a Final Demand for Payment is issued and if that is not complied with the a default is registered.

                      The other complaints about the running of the accounts were with the bank 1st Credit will know nothing about any disputes.
                      1st Credit will no doubt just state that the bought the debt in good faith and are unaware of any dispute.

                      Did you challenge the consolidation of the OD and the credit card account into one debt?

                      nem

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                        Originally posted by nemesis45 View Post

                        Did you challenge the consolidation of the OD and the credit card account into one debt?

                        nem
                        I remember receiving a letter from HSBC that said they had paid of the credit card and transferred it to the bank account. I'm sure I spoke to someone about it to protest but the account was already unrecoverable at that time.. That's the thing, you keep fighting at the time until you realise you're fighting a loosing battle, especially after being run through the mill with my personal account.. The credit card (Commercial Card) was originally set up to be a charge card to be paid off each month, I guess they decided to change it back to that set up which would give them the chance to demand the whole lot in full..

                        I think this is looking like it will be difficult to argue, despite HSBC being unreasonable in the first place..
                        Last edited by Kati; 28th October 2015, 13:58:PM. Reason: fix quote

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                          What was your overdraft limit at the point they stuck the credit card debt on the account ?
                          #staysafestayhome

                          Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                          Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                            The account didn't have an overdraft facility. HSBC let it go into negative which was when it started to accrue charges.. I kept trying to keep it positive to prevent the charges. I also had a couple of small direct debits that I was paying out of the account but they ended up bouncing.. My goal at the time was to keep it even and keep it positive until I found another line of work. They jump on you once you get a little behind on things..

                            When the commercial card was added, the account balance was -£624.. That turned it into -£2075 when they added the card balance and they continued to charge fees for the following couple of months, whilst also refunding charges too. In the end, they closed the account at -£2374.97

                            I was so fed up with trying to get them to see reason at the time, you might as well bang your head against a brick wall..!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 1st Credit - persistent vultures trying to claim an overdraft..

                              I'm wondering if that's the argument then. They took money that wasn't there and charged you for being over the overdraft when they put you there.

                              Do you have those statements handy ?
                              #staysafestayhome

                              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                              Comment

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