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  1. #1
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Hi,

    Firstly I have not mention the DCA as I expect that they monitor these forums.

    After eighteen months since the original request a DCA has sent me what they say is a "True copy" of a reconstituted sainsburys credit card agreement, which they say satisfies CCA S78

    According to the FCA handbook, and the Carey v HSBC they are allowed to do this if it contains the correct details and that as long as they accurately reflected the original, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALLOW TO DECEIVE

    Well....
    1. the account was opened in 1998
    2. The address for sainburys on the recon is Holborn, London. Sainburys didn't move into this address until 2002
    3. I did not live at the address quoted until much later. In fact in 1998 the house didn't exist
    4. The terms and conditions refer to Rights of third parties act 1999. this did not come into force until 18th November 1999, some eighteen months after the account was opened.

    This does not in anyway comply with section 78 and is a work of pure fiction

    My question is do I tell the DCA, where they are wrong
    Can they create second "true copy of a reconstructed agreement"
    Do I ignore it let it go to court and then have my day,
    Or complain to the FCA

  2. #2
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Hi,

    Firstly I have not mention the DCA as I expect that they monitor these forums.

    After eighteen months since the original request a DCA has sent me what they say is a "True copy" of a reconstituted sainsburys credit card agreement, which they say satisfies CCA S78

    According to the FCA handbook, and the Carey v HSBC they are allowed to do this if it contains the correct details and that as long as they accurately reflected the original, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALLOW TO DECEIVE

    Well....
    1. the account was opened in 1998
    2. The address for sainburys on the recon is Holborn, London. Sainburys didn't move into this address until 2002
    3. I did not live at the address quoted until much later. In fact in 1998 the house didn't exist
    4. The terms and conditions refer to Rights of third parties act 1999. this did not come into force until 18th November 1999, some eighteen months after the account was opened.

    This does not in anyway comply with section 78 and is a work of pure fiction

    My question is do I tell the DCA, where they are wrong
    Can they create second "true copy of a reconstructed agreement"
    Do I ignore it let it go to court and then have my day,
    Or complain to the FCA
    Hi welcome to L

    No do Not explain what's wrong with the recon, reject/refute as non compliant e.g. I am in receipt of what company name refers to a ""reconstituted" agreement for the alleged debt that it is pursuing Ref:......................: Please note this document is refuted as non compliant with the formulation of a reconstituted agreement, therefore the alleged debt remains unenforceable.

    You are anonymous on LB unless your user name betrays you real ID it would enable us to advise clearly if we had more detail.

    For clarity a recon must have:
    Your name and address when the account was opened.
    The creditors name and address when the account was opened.
    All the T's & C's relevant when the account was opened and those when the account was closed.
    Any other document (s) mentioned in the T's & C's.
    All material amendments made during the life of the agreement.

    From the information provided what you have received is nonsense and has no merit as to section 78 of CCA 1974 (as amended)

    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  3. #3
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    I dare say that even if they were able to do an accurate recon it would be unenforceable anyway , many debts from that age were as they did not comply with the CCA. But as Nem says don't tell them whats wrong, in fact I would think about even contacting them unless they contact you at which point you just write and say 'On xxxxxx I sent a lawful S78 request, to date you have failed to comply with my request' . You might want to add what is required by quoting S78(1) , a cut and paste would do .

  4. #4
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Thank you Nemesis45,
    This was my original thinking, what about an FCA complaint, they are an FCA Member?

  5. #5
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Thank you Nemesis45,
    This was my original thinking, what about an FCA complaint, they are an FCA Member?
    The FCA is the governmental body set up to replace to OFT it issues " consumer credit licences" and administers the provisions of CCA 1974 DCA's and Debt Purchasers are licenced by the FCA. Personally I'd leave any complaint until all this is cleared up, if there is deliberate deception here it would come up in the event a claim is issued.

    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  6. #6
    FlamingParrot's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Hi,

    Firstly I have not mention the DCA as I expect that they monitor these forums.
    If they do, they won't be able to tell who is who since they handle thousands of accounts and we also have thousands of members here, there are also a lot of similar sites and they have better things to do like printing out and stuffing envelopes with threatening letters. :lol:
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    After eighteen months since the original request a DCA has sent me what they say is a "True copy" of a reconstituted sainsburys credit card agreement, which they say satisfies CCA S78

    According to the FCA handbook, and the Carey v HSBC they are allowed to do this if it contains the correct details and that as long as they accurately reflected the original, BUT THEY ARE NOT ALLOW TO DECEIVE
    That is correct, they are allowed to send a recon.
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Well....
    1. the account was opened in 1998
    2. The address for sainburys on the recon is Holborn, London. Sainburys didn't move into this address until 2002
    3. I did not live at the address quoted until much later. In fact in 1998 the house didn't exist
    4. The terms and conditions refer to Rights of third parties act 1999. this did not come into force until 18th November 1999, some eighteen months after the account was opened.

    This does not in anyway comply with section 78 and is a work of pure fiction
    It does sound like a reCON!! :rant:
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    My question is do I tell the DCA, where they are wrong
    Can they create second "true copy of a reconstructed agreement"
    No, you shouldn't tell them why they are wrong. :nono: The DCA cannot reconstruct an agreement, only the original creditor can, but you don't want to give them the ammunition.
    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Do I ignore it let it go to court and then have my day,
    Or complain to the FCA
    I reckon you could take this to your advantage rather than making it the subject of a complaint. If they went to court with that rubbish you could have the whole thing thrown out. :juge:

  7. #7
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Thank you for your all of your responses,

    After consideration, I am just going to sit on this and wait for the threats, more threats, final threats, extra final threats, we mean it this time threat, letters to come in.

    Furthermore, I now live in the EU and the DCA knows this. So they will probably just go away, but if not I'm ready
    Last edited by PurpleMinion; 25th September 2015 at 12:35:PM. Reason: grammar

  8. #8
    FlamingParrot's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Thank you for your all of your responses,

    After consideration, I am just going to sit on this and wait for the threats, more threats, final threats, extra final threats, we mean it this time threat, letters to come in.

    Furthermore, I now live in the EU and the DCA knows this. So they will probably just go away, but if not I'm ready
    Do they write to you abroad or are you having your post forwarded so you can be aware of what's going on? I'm just saying in case a claim was issued, you'd need to respond within 14 days or they can obtain default judgment :scared: which doesn't take into account whether the account is enforceable or not.

  9. #9
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    I have no UK address and they correspond directly with me in the EU

  10. #10
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    I would make sure that you do not ignore any real threats of a claim as I believe that if they get a judgement against you they can enforce that if you live in the EEA

  11. #11
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Then maybe I should reply, using Nemesis45's rebutal, it will certainly make them think before they act

  12. #12
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Then maybe I should reply, using Nemesis45's rebutal, it will certainly make them think before they act
    Hi Purpleminion,

    How much is being chased is it a large amount?

    There is a facility call a European Enforcement Order which allows an EU court to enforce a debt that has a judgement in another EU state unless the amount owed is significant it may not be worth the effort to go this far.
    Not many of these order are made.

    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  13. #13
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Without going into all the details
    Originally it was 10k,
    4k has been paid via a DMP,
    the DCA have added 4k interest,
    so it is still 10k

    The reason I have stopped paying toward this is they refuse to stop adding interest. I last made a payment In November 2014.

  14. #14
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Without going into all the details
    Originally it was 10k,
    4k has been paid via a DMP,
    the DCA have added 4k interest,
    so it is still 10k

    The reason I have stopped paying toward this is they refuse to stop adding interest. I last made a payment In November 2014.
    If this was my problem I would use the suggested rebuttal now.


    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  15. #15
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Then maybe I should reply, using Nemesis45's rebutal, it will certainly make them think before they act
    I would not reply just yet , wait until something substantial comes through the post

  16. #16
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Berniethebolt View Post
    I would not reply just yet , wait until something substantial comes through the post
    Why? The claimant has provided a poor recon agreement to back up its claim what more substantial is there now.
    Answer nothing!

    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  17. #17
    FlamingParrot's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis45 View Post
    Why? The claimant has provided a poor recon agreement to back up its claim what more substantial is there now.
    Answer nothing!

    nem
    Claimant? I didn't think a claim had been issued... :confused2:

  18. #18
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by nemesis45 View Post
    Why? The claimant has provided a poor recon agreement to back up its claim what more substantial is there now.
    Answer nothing!

    nem
    Why tip them off now that the recon is rubbish. When and if something more substantial arrives that is the time to reply, well in my opinion.

  19. #19
    PurpleMinion's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Thanks for your opinions guys.

    The facts so far.
    They have only recently sent the reCON,
    no claim has been made.

    I have draughted a rebutal letter ready to go, but we have decided to hold this until the threats become more serious. Like Berniethebolt says, why tip them off to soon.

    One final point if there is no valid CCA is the interest they have added is illegal to?

    I Know i could wipe the floor with them in court and am prepared to do so if this happens, But if this can be avoided, it would be my preferred option.

  20. #20
    mystery1's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Berniethebolt View Post
    Why tip them off now that the recon is rubbish. When and if something more substantial arrives that is the time to reply, well in my opinion.
    If they launch a claim it is better to have told them as they are then in the position of knowing the recon is crap and their behaviour unreasonable rather than potentially having a judge think you are the one behaving unreasonably as it may have consequences in costs.

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  21. #21
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    The failure to comply with a S78 request only bars them from enforcement in court.

    I am a little worried about them adding interest , are the DCA actually part of the OC , for example Blair Oliver and Scott are part of Halifax and Mercers are part of Barclays ( I think).

    The Original Creditor is Sainsbury's Bank did you say so who are the DCA.

    Has the account been defaulted and if so did you ever receive a termination notice as if you did, even if the account is still with Sainsburys I don't believe they can add interest.

    I remember that I used to get letters from Cabot with different amounts on them and my DMP advisor said it was interest but frankly I did not trust him.

  22. #22
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by mystery1 View Post
    If they launch a claim it is better to have told them as they are then in the position of knowing the recon is crap and their behaviour unreasonable rather than potentially having a judge think you are the one behaving unreasonably as it may have consequences in costs.

    M1
    M1

    I am not suggesting to wait until court to tell them, just to wait until a LBA or something more serious than just a return of a non compliant CCA.
    After all what is to say the OP did not just file it and put his/her head back into the sand

    I am not one of those who say do not communicate with creditors at all but to be honest I found replying to every letter a very stressful and time consuming, not to mention expensive task .

    I personally reply to letters from new creditors i.e after an assignment or if they have not been in touch for a while even if I write some bull . I think on just about every creditor I have I can make a reasonable excuse for thinking their CCA response is non compliant be it iffy terms and conditions, no signature or tick box . being on a low income and having no assets also helps

  23. #23
    nemesis45's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    Quote Originally Posted by PurpleMinion View Post
    Thanks for your opinions guys.

    The facts so far.
    They have only recently sent the reCON,
    no claim has been made.

    I have draughted a rebutal letter ready to go, but we have decided to hold this until the threats become more serious. Like Berniethebolt says, why tip them off to soon.

    One final point if there is no valid CCA is the interest they have added is illegal to?

    I Know i could wipe the floor with them in court and am prepared to do so if this happens, But if this can be avoided, it would be my preferred option.
    Some of us are looking towards a potential claim, being prepared and a step ahead if a claim does get issued.
    as M1 says it's the reasonable approach putting them on " warning " that their recon is without merit.

    nem
    The Advice I Give and Draft Letters Provided Are Drawn From Personal Experience and Career Training And Are Given Freely And Without Liability.
    Please make your own decisions with care and if necessary seek qualified legal advice.
    I will not advise by Private Message. If Specific Advice is Needed please Tag me in your post by typing @Nemesis45 . If you receive messages from anyone offering advice for a fee please report it to the site team. Animo et Fide.





  24. #24
    MIKE770's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    you need a paper trail, failure such could mean case lost on probability, .

  25. #25
    Berniethebolt's Avatar

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    Default Re: DCA Reconstituted work of fiction

    It's entirely your call of course

    To be honest there is no probability issue if the OP can show that they did not live at the address when the account was opened especially as the house did not exist

    Horses for courses I think

    We need to remember there has been no LBA and so far not even a sniff of a claim of course I do also know people who always like to have the last letter being from them.

    I can only tell anyone what I would do and what so far has worked for me

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