Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

[ladystardust888]

Hi all,

Moved into a new property recently and got my name on the Council Tax bill .Just received a letter this evening dated 23/07/2014 from a debt collection agency regarding an outstanding Council Tax bill. This is genuinely news to me, as the MLO was made against myself and the other tenant on 07/12/2012. The total is £575.18...quite a shocking amount really!!! I'm in tears as I type this thread.

I will be calling the Council tomorrow to clarify what on Earth is going on. I think its in relation to a property I lived in with a fellow tenant from Sep 2011 - Mar 2012 (I will check my paperwork for exact dates when I can find the contract,...if!!!) that the CT was I think was joint. At the time I gave a mixture of cash and bank transfers of the rent, bill money and CT to the other housemate. I've sent her a Facebook message but based on how badly things ended between us I don't really see a response anytime soon...

* This is the very first I've heard of this debt!!!!!
* The other tenant is named on the letter. From what I can remember she moved to London. If she is named, is she liable for this?
* I (luckily) have a full-time job. Doesn't pay fantastically so I doubt I'll be classed as vulnerable resident.
* If I dispute this bill, what happens then?

Eitherway, can anyone advise? I can see worst case scenario having to pay this damn bill...an expensive mistake I will never make again. Anything is very appreciated

[Wombats]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

I'm afraid if you were both named on the council tax it is a joint liability for any amount outstanding. The collectors will not mind whether you pay it or your ex house mate. Clearly you need a detailed breakdown of the amount before arranging anything.

If you know the address of your former house mate, then you could pass on her address and arrange payment, maybe half each, though liability remains shared totally between you. I assume you cannot prove you paid it previously to her in any way?

I fear it may be an expensive lesson.

[ladystardust888]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

I can accept that if liability is shared, then we would have to jointly pay (which as frustrating as it is, I'd be willing to do).

What I am wondering is say for example I receive a breakdown of the costs, and it is indeed £575.81...

* If I offered to pay exactly half, would it be up to myself to try and get into contact for her to make payment?
* If they cant make contact with her, can they come back to myself and demand the rest of the payment?

I may be able to prove that I paid her money to her bank account but it was a lump sum (rent, bills and council tax). There isn't exactly a breakdown but I'd need to double check my statements...

[Wombats]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

The joint liability means you are BOTH liable for the ENTIRE amount, regardless of whether one pays it all, you halve it, or whatever. If you have an agreement with her to pay half each and she defaults on it, they'll simply come after you for the money. Sorry, I know this isn't what you wanted to hear. :beagle:If you have bank statements and matching bills still (or can get copies) then you may have an argument to take her to the small claims court to recoup your losses.

[ladystardust888]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

Well it's all gone massively Pete Tong now...

Rang the Council on the 30th to find out further information about the debt. Explained my situation and that if I have to pay, then I have to pay. I told him I wanted to make payments direct to the Council at an affordable rate. He told me that they would not be able to take the debt back and to speak to Bristow to arrange a payment plan. I just burst into years and sobbed down the phone The person I spoke to advised me to write a letter of complaint and to include a payment plan, which was sent same day recorded delivery but it's not guaranteed this will go anywhere. He mentioned that from the situation I'm in it would probably get looked at and go straight back to the Council!

I rang Bristow to inform them of the other tenant's information and asked about further information. The Council want the debt repaid within six months and therefore want a one-off payment of £95.18 and then £96 moving forward!! I can't repay this!! They refused my offer of £50 a month and said that she was sending out Enforcement Agents this week to re-possess everything and change the locks (I'm in a shared house. The only thing worth of value they could take is this very old Dell they would sell on for ooo...£30?) If I follow their payment plan I will genuinely get behind on the rent and CT here...ending up in the same situation?!

I know there are people on this board with much higher CT arrears but I'm worried sick. I can't sleep, I cant keep anything down. I am so terrified that I'm going to come back, unable to get into my flat and just more and more fees on top. Please can someone help me while I sob into a mountain of tissues?

[Kati]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

See attached file. Page 8, section 4.5:
“Local Authorities must be prepared to deal directly with individuals at any point. It is within their gift to call back the action at any time.”

They must be willing to take the debt back from the Enforcement agents at any time!!!

"They refused my offer of £50 a month and said that she was sending out Enforcement Agents this week to re-possess everything and change the locks"

They cannot do this!! CT debt bailiffs can only enter a property peaceably - no locksmiths, no breaking in, no forcing doors, no climbing through windows!!

You need to make a formal complaint about these threats to both the EA company and the council. If they did turn up, you could have them arrested!

[ladystardust888]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

Ahhhh! Guess who will be getting a phonecall first thing Monday morning...!!!

I'm attempting to draft a letter as we speak. Glad to know they can't do that, I've been made homeless before and I'm terrified at the idea of it happening again.

I'm just so stumped at what to do next apart from complain. It's all really overwhelming. I do want to clear this debt...would it be worth making the payments I've suggested to show that yes, I want it paid and gone and it's not just lipservice?

[wales01man]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

You can only try to get the Council to take back the Debt problem is most refuse and you are left at the mercy of the Bailiff.

Contact your Councillor this weekend to try and get their help the CT Debt will not go away but hopefully the bailiffs will .

Plenty of help with you situation on these Forums

[Kati]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

If you acknowledge the CT debt and want to pay in instalments, maybe you could write a cheque to hand in at the council?? or even just reiterate your willingness to pay by instalments within the Complaint letter to the council? I'm not 100% sure how to go about that part of the situation :noidea: but surely you showing a readiness to clear the debt will count for something?!?

I would (personally) inform the council that I was not going to deal with the bailiffs at all - due to their illegal threats and bullying tactics - and put in a strongly worded formal complaint ASAP!

Kati x

[Guest]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

The problem that you have is that most councils instruct their agents to collect debts within either 3 or 6 months. They cannot agree to longer periods without first consulting with the council.

What you don't want to happen here is for the bailiff to visit you. As long as you don't let him in or there is a car outside, he cannot get hold of any of your goods. BUT it will cost you an extra £235 for this visit.

The reason for your complaint is that you are being forced into a punitive repayment plan. The document posted in post #6 states at 4.4 that debtors should not be forced into punitive repayment plans. The National Standards also recommend that debtors should not enter into plans that they cannot afford.

You are prepared to pay this debt back, you would ask the council to take on board that you are stuck with the entire debt even though you were sharing with another liable person who appears to be not paying anything towards the debt. You simply ask to be allowed to make payments at an affordable rate of £50 per month. To insist on double this could potentially drive you into rent arrears or other debt.

B&S are threatening to return to my property to remove goods to secure against the debt. You will not be allowing them entry to your home and there is no car outside. For B&S to return will serve no real purpose other than to send you spiralling deeper into debt as an enforcement fee will be added to your account. This is the first you have heard of this issue, you would ideally like the council to take the debt back but in any case, you ask for recovery action to be suspended whilst a sensible repayment plan can be agreed.

Head the complaint "Formal Complaint (stage 1)" Email it to the CEO & to B&S over the weekend so that they have it on Monday morning. Post it to the council as well, getting proof of posting.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

The problem that you have is that most councils instruct their agents to collect debts within either 3 or 6 months.

Unless there is statutory provision allowing such restrictions to be imposed, this practice may well be unlawful. I know there is such a provision applicable to the collection of unpaid magistrates court fines, but that is covered by legislation.

[Guest]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

Statutory provision makes the debtor liable to make payment in full by the 1st April every tax year.

I doubt the practice would be unlawful in any case as there are exceptions to the rule. Its just very hard for the debtor to find out how to go about negotiating a more acceptable repayment plan.

My feeling is that councils & bailiffs act like good cop/bad cop. The council probably cares less about the debtor than the bailiff does but has to be seen to be doing the right thing. If a proposal is refused by the bailiffs, a formal complaint should be issued to the council immediately. The debtor should quote 4.4 of the DCLG guidance and also 24 of the National Standards. The debtor should ask that further enforcement action be suspended whilst a realistic payment plan is being negotiated.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

Statutory provision makes the debtor liable to make payment in full by the 1st April every tax year.
Does that refer to the bill after issue or once an LO is issued? If a Liable Person pays their CT Bill by instalments, if in 12 monthly instalments, then the bill is due to be paid by the end of the tax year in which it is issued. Also, do you have the statutory provision available, please?
I doubt the practice would be unlawful in any case as there are exceptions to the rule. Its just very hard for the debtor to find out how to go about negotiating a more acceptable repayment plan. You would be surprised just how local authorities break the law where CT is concerned. However, if there is a deliberate policy of making it difficult for debtors to negotiate an acceptable repayment plan, this, in itself, could be unlawful.
My feeling is thatcouncils & bailiffs act like good cop/bad cop. The council probably cares less about the debtor than the bailiff does but has to be seen to be doing the right thing. If a proposal is refused by the bailiffs, a formal complaint should be issued to the council immediately. The debtor should quote 4.4 of the DCLG guidance and also 24 of the National Standards. The debtor should ask that further enforcement action be suspended whilst a realistic payment plan is being negotiated.
I feel it needs to be borne in mind that there is wholesale fraud and corruption going on where the obtaining of Liability Orders is concerned. More often than not, an Information cannot be evidenced to support the issue of a summons because the local authority has issued what is, essentially, a document that purports to be a court summons, but is anything but. It might has well be signed "Mickey Mouse" and have a Walt Disney logo on it. And when the debtor gets to court, many do not realise it is the local authority conducting the hearing, not court staff. You only have to look in the Justices' Clerk Society's manual to find a quote telling Justices' Clerks not to let defendants find out the local authority is running the show. There are malevolent factions at work in society who are determined to create as much chaos as possible and have everyone at each other's throats. This is not conspiracy theory. This is fact. The reality is that civil enforcement companies, bailiffs and debtors are all victims of these malevolent factions. I have found, however, in a case I am currently dealing with, that court staff and judges/JPs have clearly had enough and are not being so accommodating of local authorities' demands. A very helpful member of court staff has dropped the local authority right in it and a judge has granted a lengthy adjournment to a defendant - over a month - even though the local authority asked for only a two-week adjournment. The local authority had, after all, only handed the evidence they were relying on to the defendant AFTER the hearing.

Do not be surprised if a lot of LOs are reviewed and the civil enforcement that resulted from them is reviewed also. As stated in red, above, the civil enforcement industry, individual bailiffs and debtors, alike, are all victims of corrupt government and malevolent factions.

[Guest]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

I'm not sure what your point is?

We all have opinions on the obtaining of LO's, however anyone who has challenged a LO has ended up being jailed. Your personal opinions (like mine) belong on another thread. You originally questioned the legality of bailiffs being asked to collect within (usually) 3 months or (sometimes) 6 months. It is perfectly legal and the fact that they sometimes allow longer shows the idea is not set in stone.

I just want to try to guide debtors in the direction where the whole ordeal costs them the minimum amount, both financially and in terms of impact-Advising debtors to challenge fraudulent LO's is not on my agenda.

[bluebottle]

Re: Bristow & Sutor - Leicester CCl - Council Tax...Magistrates Liability Order?!

I'm not sure what your point is?

We all have opinions on the obtaining of LO's, however anyone who has challenged a LO has ended up being jailed. Your personal opinions (like mine) belong on another thread. You originally questioned the legality of bailiffs being asked to collect within (usually) 3 months or (sometimes) 6 months. It is perfectly legal and the fact that they sometimes allow longer shows the idea is not set in stone.

I just want to try to guide debtors in the direction where the whole ordeal costs them the minimum amount, both financially and in terms of impact-Advising debtors to challenge fraudulent LO's is not on my agenda.

Are we to understand from what I have highlighted in bold type that there is no statutory provision allowing the collection of CT arrears to be restricted to three or six months? If there is, would you quote the relevant provision or provide a link, please? Just because a time-limit may be quoted in a contract, this does not, in itself, mean that it is legal. Contracts must comply with the law in every respect. I have nothing against you, personally, ST, and I am not doubting you, but what I am trying to establish is whether or not, local authorities are acting lawfully by inserting such stipulations. It seems to me that you have revealed something that was little known about. If my instincts are right, it means that civil enforcement companies, bailiffs and debtors are being shafted by local authorities.