Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

[keef82]

Hi All,

I was wondering if I could get some advice, I have received a letter from Rossendales Debt Collectors on behalf of HM Revenue & Customs.
They are claiming an overpayment of Working Tax Credits to the amount of £1268.68.
I phoned HM Revenue & Customs Tax Credit helpline and the unhelpful woman on the phone said the overpayments are from two separate periods when I received working tax credits, 2008 and 2011.
These were perfectly genuine claims but because I failed to send a completion pack at the end of the year the claims were terminated and HMRC require all the money back. I was unaware I had to send a completion pack (stupid I know, but I assumed that because they had access to my national insurance number and tax details they would see how much I earned and that my tax credits claim was genuine, I moved around a lot in those years and didn't receive any of the post communication).
I asked the woman from HMRC if I could arrange some sort of payments to repay the money i.e. through my PAYE etc. She refused to discuss it and said that because it is with the debt collection agency I had to deal with them, unless I wanted to pay the overpayment on in full then she could deal with me there and then. Obviously I cant pay it all off in one, I claim tax credits so I'm clearly on a low income!!!
Where do I stand, will it now go to court?
What rights do I have with regards to payment options?
Have I any options with regards to proving I was entitled to the tax credits?
Are debt collection agencies different to bailiffs, will they come to my house and take my stuff?
Many thanks in advance,
Keith

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

I was wondering if I could get some advice, I have received a letter from Rossendales Debt Collectors on behalf of HM Revenue & Customs.
They are claiming an overpayment of Working Tax Credits to the amount of £1268.68.
I phoned HM Revenue & Customs Tax Credit helpline and the unhelpful woman on the phone said the overpayments are from two separate periods when I received working tax credits, 2008 and 2011.
These were perfectly genuine claims but because I failed to send a completion pack at the end of the year the claims were terminated and HMRC require all the money back. I was unaware I had to send a completion pack (stupid I know, but I assumed that because they had access to my national insurance number and tax details they would see how much I earned and that my tax credits claim was genuine, I moved around a lot in those years and didn't receive any of the post communication).

I have been chased for an alleged working tax credits overpayment for nearly two years now. My dispute is that I only claimed for the one year, during which my circumstances didn't change. At the end of that period I didn't renew my claim because I didn't think I'd be entitled. HMRC have never been able to provide figures to explain how the overpayment arose, so last year I sent them a letter of complaint. I copied the complaint letter to Advantis who was the DCA chasing me for the overpayment. The details and letter I sent are here: http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...262#post392262

That letter was sent after disputing the overpayment directly with HMRC, prior to them passing it on to a DCA, hence my mention of form tc846 on the letter. If you haven't sent the form in question, you may want to do that to start with: http://search2.hmrc.gov.uk/kb5/hmrc/...XLQ&formId=962 :ranger:

I've not heard a word from Advantis who were collecting this since early January. Or anyone else. :tape:

Where do I stand, will it now go to court?

Mine hasn't... despite being first chased in Sept 2012. :tape2:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

What rights do I have with regards to payment options?
Have I any options with regards to proving I was entitled to the tax credits?

See above, your first step would be to send the form, then a letter of complaint if that doesn't resolve the issue. Write to the DCA saying you are disputing the alleged overpayment with HMRC and attach the form you are sending. :thumb:

Are debt collection agencies different to bailiffs, will they come to my house and take my stuff?

They are VERY different, they can't just go to your house and take stuff, and neither can bailiffs for that matter. :nono:

They can only take stuff if you first let them in, if you leave stuff outside your house (such as a parked car or bike) or they can sneak in through an open window, but they can't force entry. There's a whole section of the forum dedicated to bailiffs, but you're not dealing with them. Rossendales do offer BOTH debt collection and bailiff services, so don't be misled by the name on the letterhead.

[Scigal]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

I have the same problem, have been fighting for 3 years and so far i just keep getting DCA letters, so i write to the tax ppl and tell them i am nit dealing with DCAs only HMRC. This has been going back and forth now for a ling time. Anyway i dont want to hijack this thread, ill make my own later on.

But suffice to say the HMRC lot are quite rubbish

[cluedup]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

I have the same problem, have been fighting for 3 years and so far i just keep getting DCA letters, so i write to the tax ppl and tell them i am nit dealing with DCAs only HMRC. This has been going back and forth now for a ling time. Anyway i dont want to hijack this thread, ill make my own later on.

But suffice to say the HMRC lot are quite rubbish

I have rang them with a very good result. Spoke to a very nice person. I explained that i have asked SARS for the transcripts of conversations with tax credits so that i can look at what was said . They said they could put the account on hold for a month while i was waiting for info to return. I said that i didn't work but i would be prepared to pay 10 pound while it was being looked into and she said ok so now i am paying 10 a month. I have not given my bank details i asked them for their bank details and transferd the money she said as long as i pay each month i will not hear from them again. My debt is over £900.00

[mickeydafish]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

I heard Kate Briscoe on You and Yours Yesterday (12-5-2016) mention something about a statutes of limitations on reclaiming of overpayments of tax credits.
Has any one found such a statement on the HMRC web site or can advise what course of action to begin with as I too have just received a demand from Rossendales after no communication with the HMRC since 2010 about an overpayment.

please - any body out there?

regards

Mickey da fish

[Amethyst]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

This is the relevant part;

DMBM595080 - Pre-enforcement: limits in enforcement proceedings: limitation legislation
Limitation Act 1980
England and Wales

Debts that are not tax

In England and Wales only, the Limitation Act 1980 provides that recovery action for debts should commence within six years from the debt becoming payable. But Section 37(2) of the Act excludes proceedings for recovery of tax or duty and interest on tax or duty thus there is no time limit for those debts.

Other debts that are not tax, for example

contract settlements
tax credit overpayments
Child benefit overpayments
National Insurance Contributions
Statutory payment recoveries (Statutory Sick Pay, Statutory Maternity Pay, Statutory Paternity Pay and Statutory Adoption Pay)
overpaid Child Trust Fund contributions
Student Loan repayments and
National Minimum Wage Act penalties

are subject to the Limitation Act, and action must be taken within six years “from the date on which the cause of action accrued”. In this context an action is the lodging of a complaint in the magistrates’ court, the issue of a county court claim form or the levying of distraint. In this same context the date on which the cause of action accrued is the original due date of the liability.

on http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/dmbm595080.htm


Just tagging [MENTION=2]Celestine[/MENTION]

[Openlaw15]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

I heard Kate Briscoe on You and Yours Yesterday (12-5-2016) mention something about a statutes of limitations on reclaiming of overpayments of tax credits.
Has any one found such a statement on the HMRC web site or can advise what course of action to begin with as I too have just received a demand from Rossendales after no communication with the HMRC since 2010 about an overpayment.

please - any body out there?

regards

Mickey da fish

Hello, Mickey

Apparently overpayment of tax credits must be claimed by the Inland Revenue within 6 years in England and Wales: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/dmbmanual/dmbm595080.htm If they are not claimed within that time they are statutory barred, ie will claim the overpayments unless you tell them. They will not tell you!

[Amethyst]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

Example letter - http://www.taxcc.org/_docs/Step%201%...0%20Letter.doc

Rossendales - in what context are they involved ? Just debt collection agency or as enforcement agents ?

[Openlaw15]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

Example letter - http://www.taxcc.org/_docs/Step%201%...0%20Letter.doc

Rossendales - in what context are they involved ? Just debt collection agency or as enforcement agents ?

My Bad, Sharon, crossed posts :P. You must have posted as i was researching the issue with a view to post ha ha

[Amethyst]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

It's completely fine, I'm glad we came up with the same bit actually as I was wondering whether the tax credits internal stuff overtook the HMRC stuff - ie. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...ual/tcm0226040 - and I can't see anything about limitations in there ( probably under one of the hidden sections due to FOI exemption)

[Amethyst]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

Example letter - http://www.taxcc.org/_docs/Step%201%...0%20Letter.doc

Rossendales - in what context are they involved ? Just debt collection agency or as enforcement agents ?

Actually that letter is a little out of date as it refers to the OFT so took that bit out.

Dear Sir/Madam

You have contacted me regarding the alleged overpayments, which you claim I owe.

I would point out that under the Limitation Act 1980 Section 5 "an action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued".

HMRC's own manual states in the Limitations Act section (DMBM595080) "Tax credit overpayments ... are subject to the Limitations Act.... In this context an action is the lodging of a complaint in the magistrates' court, the issue of a county court claim or the levying of distraint... If an action is not taken within the time limit, it could be defended successfully on the grounds of limitation."

This alleged debt occurred over six years ago and no acknowledgement or payment has been made by me in that time. As such I suggest that you are no longer able to take any action against me to recover the alleged amount claimed.

I await your written confirmation that no further contact will be made concerning the above account and confirmation that this matter is now closed.

Please note that any alleged overpayment you consider I owe that are not covered by the appropriate period (i.e those within the last 6 years), I reserve my rights to continue to appeal / dispute. But as the total you are pursuing me for includes statute barred amounts I insist this is the first issue addressed.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully
(Your signature and name in print)

and check when in 2010 the cause of action accrued as you're likely to be teetering on the brink of 6 years being only May now.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

It's completely fine, I'm glad we came up with the same bit actually as I was wondering whether the tax credits internal stuff overtook the HMRC stuff - ie. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...ual/tcm0226040 - and I can't see anything about limitations in there ( probably under one of the hidden sections due to FOI exemption)

I think the FOI only relates to HMRC avoiding showing affected persons a process which benefits them and not statutory exemptions. The link above however is clearly practice for HMRC staff so when an OP raises a Limitation Act defence, it would seem that HMRC have to concede they cannot claim the overpayments. So process, o Op's facts HMRC claim overpayments under section 28, Tax credits Act 2001. The Op then (where applicable) raises a Limitation Act 1980 defence raising the argument that tax credits are a statutory barred debt under HMRC tax manuals/ practice. HMRC manager is likely then consulted and gives junior staff advice on how to proceed, ie informs them to write back saying the overpayments are cancelled. However only if the debt is sold to the debt recovery company do they have rights to claim it. If the debt company (Rossendales) is agent for HMRC then HMRC is the first port of call and not the debt company. However, if Rossendales purchased the debt (well the right to claim recovery for the debt) this company should be provided with the statutory limitation defence.

[Openlaw15]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

Actually that letter is a little out of date as it refers to the OFT so took that bit out.


and check when in 2010 the cause of action accrued as you're likely to be teetering on the brink of 6 years being only May now.

Sharon, as the claim is very close to 6 years but not actually 6 years, it still may be possible if Mickey uses a further laches (discretionary, ie equitable) defence. Laches i believe applies where the claimant (HMRC) lets the 6 year period run and stops it at the last minute, as it were. So if Mickey were to rely on laches, he still may be able to argue the claim should be statutory barred. However, HMRC may then counter the laches by saying but this is a statutory defence and technically they would be right. The Op has nothing to lose though.

[Amethyst]

Re: Tax Credits overpayment - Rossendales

Think it depends a lot on exactly what Rossendales are saying - if it's just a standard chase letter then to set it to one side until past the 6 years would be okay, but if we're looking at court action or it's already been through court it's a different matter.