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insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

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  • insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

    Hi

    Please could any of you provide some advise please. Sorry for the long post

    My mother died unexpectedly on 24th April. My brother and I are her only surviving next of kin being her son and daughter.

    We found a will dated 2003 naming a certain solicitors as executors and trustess of the state and my brother and I as her beneficiaries.

    Looking into her estate it would appear that it is insolvent, there being approximately £3500 in her bank and a further £3500 in an over 50's plan. She had two credit cards debts for approximately £3500 and £4500 and a credit agreement with a furniture store for £1500. There is no house or anything other of value such as a car as she had a mobility car and was declared bankrupt in 2006. She only started a funeral payment plan 3 months ago which is obviously not going to pay out.

    Ive done much reading the past few days and sought legal advice as well as spoken to a probate practitioner and a bereavement support advisory service. The general consensus appears to be that as next of kin and not personal representatives we can pay a reasonable amount for her funeral, including a wake and a headstone and wrie to her creditors as next of kin advising them of her death ( we've already phoned and told them) and advise them of the insolvent estate and ask if they will consider writing off the debt. I would also get a firm to value the contents of whats in her home but I am pretty sure its not worth anything of value. My understanding is that there is no duty to settle an insolvent estate and we should then leave it to the creditors to settle the estate if they want to reclaim what is left. I was also advised to put a notice in the London gazette re further creditors contacting me.

    I contacted the said solicitors last Tuesday lunch to request that they stand down as executors given the situation. My brother and I being unable to confirm her funeral arrangements until we know that they will stand down and we can safely use the monies in her account to pay for her funeral. We do not have enough funds ourselves at present. I phoned the solicitors again at 4.30 that day and was initially told that my mother owed them money, when I was put through to their acounts depeartment I was first told that they could not give me any information as it was confidential, then later told she didnt owe anything and that someone would be in contact though they couldnt say when.Two days later I received a call from the firm advising that one of the partners would be in contact.

    I should add at this point that this is a firm who I had dealings with recently and took to the Legal Ombudsman due to the poor service I felt I received. I won on certain points lost on others. The Legal Ombudsman pointed out that I may have further compliants in future as my case was still ongoing. Wanting to move on with my life I didnt complain until it turned out that they had misbilled me on several ocassions and then wanted more money, which I paid along with making an official complaint which I have yet to receive a reply and will no doubt have to go to the Legal Ombudsman again for. To say I have no faith in the sods is an understatement. This morning I phoned again and was told by the secretary that whilst they had located my mothers divorce file they had not yet found her other file. I was also shouted at by the secretary when I asked when someone would contact me as I just wanted to bury my mother. She apologised imediately but thats not the point.

    I sent the following email to the partner I was advised was handling the case

    Dear Mr ********

    I am writing to you in respect of my mothers estate and on behalf of my brother and I as sole beneficiaries.

    My mother passed away unexepectedly on 24th April 2014. My brother and I have located a will dated 2003 which identifies your firm as executor and trustees. Can you confirm that there is not a more recent will with your firm.

    Having looked at my mothers financial situation it would appear that the estate is insolvent. There being approximately £3500 in her bank accounts and a further £3500 in an over 50's life insurance plan and approximately £7500 in credit card debts. Due to my mother being made bankrupt in 2006 there are no other assets such as a house etc.

    My understanding, after seeking legal advice, is that there is no legal obligation to settle an insolveant estate. My brother and I would very much like you to agree to stand down as executers and trustees of her will so that we may then access her funds to arrange and pay for her funeral.

    It has now been over a week since I first contacted your firm to request this and am disappointed that as yet no one has contacted us to discuss this or made a decision on the matter. Until you do agree to this my brother and I are unable to make any funeral arrangements for her.

    After calling your office today I am advised that you have located her divorce file but not the file containing her will as yet. Please could you ensure that this is done today and that a decision is made so that we may arrange her burial. The current situation is becoming quite intolerable.

    If you require any further details please do not hesitate to contact me on **********


    I received this email this afternoon

    Thank you for your e-mail of this morning.

    I was sorry to hear of your mother’s death.

    I have spoken to my partner, ********* with whom you have already been in touch and she is currently looking into whether there is a more recent Will that that referred to made in 2003.

    You will appreciate that papers have to be recovered from store and this does take time.

    You say it is “over a week since I first contacted your firm to request this and am disappointed that as yet no one has contacted us to discuss this or made a decision on the matter.” Presumably you mean the request for the partners to stand down as Executors as of course ****** was in touch with you last week by telephone.

    I do not know who has been advising you but the personal representatives of an insolvent estate have a duty to act in the best interest of the creditors of the deceased rather than the beneficiaries under the Will.

    Debts have to be paid before any legacies and personal representatives may be personally liable to pay money back into the Estate if this procedure is not followed.

    Before myself and my partner ****** are prepared to renounce Probate we will require an indemnity from you and your brother that you will personally pay to us any liability that we incur as a result of us renouncing Probate.

    Apart from the indemnity that I refer to we will also expect the costs of the Deed of Renunciation which we can prepare to be paid by your brother and yourself.

    There is no reason why you should not arrange the funeral and it may be possible for funds to be accessed without a Grant of Probate, given the assets to which you refer.

    The information you refer to in your final paragraph concerning the Divorce file is incorrect.

    Apart from the indemnity that I refer to we will also expect the costs of the Deed of Renunciation which we can prepare to be paid by your brother and yourself.

    Please let me know if you are prepared to agree to proceed on the above basis.

    Yours sincerely.


    I want to write to them advising them of the their incorrect presumption that my brother and I would be acting as personal representatives and that we would only be acting as next of kin.

    That whilst I am aware that creditors come before beneficiaries when there is an insolvent estate I am aware of the order that debts should be paid is as follows
    1.reasonable funeral expenses
    2. administration costs (your firm)
    3. creditors.
    That my brother and I intend to pay for her funeral from the estate and should her creditors wish to administer her estate themselves that will be up to them. There is no duty for anyone to administer an insolvent estate. That the only people who appear to lose out from this situation is their firm, therefore I believe there is a conflict of interest, nothwithstanding the fact that I have grave doubts about the level of service they provide as evidence by my previous complaint to the ombudsman and a currrent complaint they have yet to respond to, and that I feel that they are dealing with the matter in a prejudiced manner given the complaints I have made.

    I also want to ask them to confirm by the end of tomorrow whether or not there is a more recent will and what information they require from us to prove her financial position, and that if I do not hear from them I shall proceed on the basis that they have agreed to stand down.

    Obviously I shall try not to use such long sentences and huge number of commas. I am so angry and upset with them. We just want to bury our mother and get on with grieving and not deal with such selfish, callous turds.

    Is this the right thing to do?Is it stipulated anywhere that there is no duty to to administer an insolvent estate?


    Thanks in advance for any advice
    Last edited by enaid; 7th May 2014, 09:58:AM.
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

    Sorry for your loss, but am afraid you can not request an appointed executioner to stand down. They have legal obligations to fulfill, one of which is to act in the best interest of the estate, not of that of the beneficiaries (in this case, make things easier and allow for things to be cleared up quicker). There is no quick way of dealing with this kind of thing, so your better of leaving in to the solicitor that your mother trusted as executioners. Plus it takes a lot of weight of your shoulders as you don't have to do anything regarding your mothers estate.
    Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (LB),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

    By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

    If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

    I AM SO GOING TO GET BANNED BY CEL FOR POSTING terrible humour POSTS.

    The Governess; 6th March 2012 GRRRRRR

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

      Thank you for your reply Teaboy, but I have been informed by both a probate company, a bereavement counselling support group and a solicitor that I can ask them to renounce given the apparent insolvency of the estate and the history between I and the firm and as can be seen they are willing to. Whilst I am aware that a deed/letter of renounciation is required by them I am unsure whether a personal indemnity is required as my brother and I will not be acting as personal representatives.


      Does anyone know how I can edit my prevous post to remove the names I stupidly left in.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult


        REMOVE the names in your initial post.

        I suspect that you would be unwise to pay the funeral costs yourself.

        Do not telephone or email in future - keep everything in writing.

        When doing so, you might observe that the longer the funeral directors have to store the body, the higher the final bill is likely to be. This will have a negative impact on the settlement of outstanding debts - their bill included.

        A ruthless person might even point out that the authorities dislike unburied bodies, and wonder if a call to the appropriate department might bring some awkward questions.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

          Thank you for your reply Teaboy, but I have been informed by both a probate company, a bereavement counselling support group and a solicitor that I can ask them to renounce given the apparent insolvency of the estate and the history between I and the firm and as can be seen they are willing to. Whilst I am aware that a deed/letter of renounciation is required by them I am unsure whether a personal indemnity is required as my brother and I will not be acting as personal representatives.


          Thank you so much enquirer for your advise. My mothers bank has agreed to release the funds to us given there small size and my brother and I intend to use this towards the costs of the funeral. Not being a ruthless person I shall only make the solicitors aware of the point you raised regarding the funeral directors


          Does anyone know how I can edit my prevous post to remove the names I stupidly left in.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

            Yes you can ask them to voluntarily renounce, but you can't force them too (Though am not saying you are trying to force them too). Its clear from their reply that they intend to fulfill their obligations as the appointed executioner of the will.

            I may not have been very clear in my first post, but basically if they said no, that's it!
            Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (LB),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

            By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

            If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

            I AM SO GOING TO GET BANNED BY CEL FOR POSTING terrible humour POSTS.

            The Governess; 6th March 2012 GRRRRRR

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

              Thanks Teaboy. I know I cant force them and it seems that they are agreeable. As ive said I understand that they would want to officially renounce their position as executor but asking for a personal indemity from m brother and I appears to be a little over the top given that my brother and I do not intend to act as personal representatives and therefore just appears to be a way of making more money. Unless of course others advise that this is usual practice. Due to my past history with the firm I have little confidence in them and feel there is a real conflict of interest her too

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                How can I remove the names in my post as I no longer have the option to edit that post

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                  I've asked the site to remove the names in your original post for you.
                  Please note that this advice is given informally, without liability and without prejudice. Always seek the advice of an insured qualified professional. All my legal and nonlegal knowledge comes from either here (LB),my own personal research and experience and/or as the result of necessity as an Employer and Businessman.

                  By using my advice in any form, you agreed to waive all rights to hold myself or any persons representing myself of any liability.

                  If you PM me, make sure to include a link to your thread as I don't give out advice in private. All PMs that are sent in missuse (including but not limited to phishing, spam) of the PM application and/or PMs that are threatening or abusive will be reported to the Site Team and if necessary to the police and/or relevant Authority.

                  I AM SO GOING TO GET BANNED BY CEL FOR POSTING terrible humour POSTS.

                  The Governess; 6th March 2012 GRRRRRR

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                    Originally posted by Blinkin73 View Post
                    How can I remove the names in my post as I no longer have the option to edit that post
                    You seem to have two user names - you need to sign back on as Ballou02 who originally posted and click on the edit button to edit that post.

                    Alternatively you can use the report button (triangle with exclamation mark in) and ask admin to do it for you.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                      Thank you once again Teaboy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                        As regards your original question, firstly I'm sorry for your loss. It's never easy to lose a loved one and particularly stressful to have an executor that you don't trust.

                        These links may be of some help:

                        http://www.bereavementadvice.org/pro...entestates.php

                        https://www.probatewizard.co.uk/guid...eral-bill.html

                        the gist of which appears to be that funeral expenses come second on the list of priority debts after secured loans.

                        In my very humble opinion you would be crazy to sign anything that gives you personal liability. If it were me I would insist on the funeral expenses being paid and leave the solicitors to sort the rest, if you are sure that the Estate is insolvent.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                          I think all names removed if not just let me know x

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                            Thank you so much MissFM. I do indeed have two user names (so many usernames and paswords to remember its easy to get confused) which would acount for why I couldnt sign in this morning and had to reset my password.

                            Thank you Carersuk for removing all the names.

                            I too dont understand the need for my brother and I to sign a personal indemnity especially as my brother and I do not wih to be personal representatives. I fully expect them to be as dificult as possible given my previous dealings with the firm.

                            I sent an email to the firm a few moments ago. I will post that up here in a moment. I think it sounds reasonable despite the fact that I am seething inside.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: insolvent esate, solicitor/executer being difficult

                              This is what I wrote to the firm
                              • Dear 88888,

                                Thank you for your condolences.

                                I do appreciate that it can take time to find papers. But as I am sure you can appreciate, my brother and I would very much like to have her funeral quickly so that we can fully grieve. Which is why I expected someone to contact me and find out why I was asking your firm to stand down and renounce probate as a starting point, as opposed to phoning two days later to inform me either you or John Crone would be in contact at some indeterminable time in the future. Had someone contacted me earlier I could have asked about the possibility of there being a more current will a week sooner.

                                When I phoned for the second time on 29th April 2014 to enquire if anyone was dealing with the issue and when they might be free to discuss the situation, the primary concern expressed by your firm was financial. I was initially advised that my mother owed your firm money and was put through to the accounts department. After they refused to advise me of any monies owed on grounds of confidentiality, I phoned through to your reception again and was advised that there had been an error and my mother did not owe your firm any monies. Consequently its difficult to believe that your firm has not prioritised looking for my mothers divorce papers to ascertain what her estate might be. I cannot think of any reason why a member of your staff would lie to me and advise that the divorce files regarding my mothers had been located but not her will yet.

                                I feel I did not communicate very well the position of my brother and I in yesterdays email. We have no desire to act as personal representatives, we merely wish to act as next of kin and bury our mother as best we can. Its the last act that we will ever do for her and we want to do the best we can. Humane acts such as burying a person are not considered intermeddling and the reasonable costs of a funeral comes before any of the creditors my mother has. My mothers bank has agreed that it would release the monies in her account so that a funeral can be paid for

                                I am willing to attached a copy of her bank accounts with the amounts and her creditors identifying the amounts owed to help aid your decision. please note that a further debt of £1500 has been identified since my last email. I shall shortly put an advert in the London Gazette advising of my mothers death for any further creditors. I have arranged for a professional to value the chattels at her home so at to ensure I have not misidentified anything as being of little value when it is in fact not. I will forward this to you as soon as I have received it if you require it to help aid your decision as I am sure you cant just take my word.

                                In the absence of having any meaningful contact with you until yesterday, I have spoken with a probate firm, a bereavement support group and a solicitor, who advised /agreed that there is no duty on anyone to administer an insolvent estate and solicitors firms usually stand down in such circumstances. If an executor does not wish to execute an estate for any reason he does not have to and can renounce it.

                                I appreciate that a deed or letter of renouncement will need to be completed by your firm. Could you confirm how much this would cost. Please could you also clearly state the reason you feel an indemnity is required from my brother and I given that we would not be acting as her personal representatives and how much this will cost? Given that you can renounce the role for any reason and would be essentially washing your hands of the entire thing, this is an unusual request and I cant see why this is required. Further expenses are not something that my brother and I can particularly afford right now as we have to find the monies to "top up" the reasonable expenses allowed from her estate to give her the burial she wanted. She started a funeral plan 3 months ago which of course wont pay out but it did identify the coffin and plot at the cemetary that she wanted and we'd like to ensure that she gets that.

                                Apart from the fact that the estate is insolvent, there are of course further reasons for believing that you should stand down. Obviously in the recent past I have made a complaint against you to the legal ombusdman, and I am currently awaiting a response from you to a further complaint. Much like my previous dealings with your firm have coloured my views as to your firms abilities, I am sure they have coloured your views as to my involvement hence your defensive email yesterday. I think there is a real conflict of interest here.

                                I am asking you to do what is right given the circumstances and to not make this situation anymore difficult than it already is. In case we are unable to reach a satisfactory agreement please could you advise of your fees in respect of dealing with the estate as there may be more efficient methods to maximise the amount her creditors recieve. A specialist probate firm for example may charge less to deal with the estate.

                                We would like to finalise her funeral arrangements by the end of the week and would greatly appreciate it if you could answer the questions above by close of business today.I would also like you to consider the fact that the longer this drags out the longer my mothers body is stored by the funeral directors and that this will impact upon her funeral costs and therefore the amount her creditors will receive as well as your fees should we not be able to agree on the matter.


                                I hope this sounds okay. There are no secured debts just a couple of credit card debts and a credit agreement with a furniture store
                              Last edited by Blinkin73; 7th May 2014, 11:29:AM.

                              Comment

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