Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

[teaboy2]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

So non-compliance with a liability order and/or not fully providing information requested in the information request form, or providing dishonest information, is not a criminal offence, and as such you can not then be prosecuted for it?

And same would apply in cases of child maintenance payments via the CSA, where a parent has not paid any maintenance owed/due?

I agree in regards to penalty under civil law needing to be proportionate to cost. But the fact is here, that people are being fined for non payment of council tax. Would not issuing a fine for a civil issue be a miscarriage of justice in a sense?!

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

So non-compliance with a liability order and/or not fully providing information requested in the information request form, or providing dishonest information, is not a criminal offence, and as such you can not then be prosecuted for it?

Nope didn't say anything about dishonesty, nor anything about contempt of court, those are separate issues and incur penalties in there own right of course

And same would apply in cases of child maintenance payments via the CSA, where a parent has not paid any maintenance owed/due?

No Idea not my area

I agree in regards to penalty under civil law needing to be proportionate to cost. But the fact is here, that people are being fined for non payment of council tax. Would not issuing a fine for a civil issue be a miscarriage of justice in a sense?!

People are not being fined for none payment of council tax to my knowledge.

[teaboy2]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Originally Posted by teaboy2
So non-compliance with a liability order and/or not fully providing information requested in the information request form, or providing dishonest information, is not a criminal offence, and as such you can not then be prosecuted for it?

Nope didn't say anything about dishonesty, nor anything about contempt of court, those are separate issues and incur penalties in there own right of course (I wouldn't say they were separate issues, they are part of the same process here)

And same would apply in cases of child maintenance payments via the CSA, where a parent has not paid any maintenance owed/due?

No Idea not my area

I agree in regards to penalty under civil law needing to be proportionate to cost. But the fact is here, that people are being fined for non payment of council tax. Would not issuing a fine for a civil issue be a miscarriage of justice in a sense?!

People are not being fined for none payment of council tax to my knowledge.

Right, well as i stated originally, non payment of council tax is a civil matter, until a person fails to comply with a liability order and/or fails to fully and honestly provide information requested in the information request form, that comes with the liability order. Its only then when it becomes an offence and people can be convicted for it and fined, and its usually persistent non payers that are sentence to jail. See my post here (which i have also quoted below, but i have removed content that is not really relevant) -

So if its not an offence - then how come one can be fined, imprisoned and get a CRIMINAL RECORD for not paying council tax - By not complying fully with the council tax liability order by truthfully completing and filling in the Information Request form, that comes with it??? You can not be imprisoned for a civil matter as that's like saying you can be put imprison for committing no crime, but just because the government or council want you imprison!!

Bluebottle was referring to the offence of non payment of council tax where a liability order had not been fully or honestly complied with. Which is an offence, punishable by criminal conviction and imprisonment. The only part of enforcing council tax that is civil is prior to non compliance with the liability order or full and honest completion of the information request form.

Whilst the issuing of a liability order is not a criminal matter, the non compliance and/or failure to or providing untrue information provided by the debtor is though - So is successive non payments of council tax.

So all along, andy, regarding council tax, we have agreed on what part off non payment is civil and what part is an offence. Its the offence part that i believe bluebottle was referring too, not civil part.

In regards to CSA, they use the same process to enforce payment of maintenance as the council do to enforce council tax.

I think a lot of people get confused as to what is an offence and what is not regarding council tax payment. People say it can not show on your CRB, when your convicted of non payment as they think its a civil matter in its entirety. But its not entirely a civil matter, and it can show on CRB if your prosecuted for it and prosecution occurs only after non compliance with liability order, or where you have failed to fully or honestly provided request information. So its all depends on the circumstances of each individuals case. If the complied with LBO and full and honestly provided information, or even paid up straight away, then no offence has been committed.

So do we agree on this?

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Well im not sure.

The collection of council tax is always a civil matter, because it is about collecting money owed. There is no criminality in not paying, at whatever stage.

If there was there would be a criminal statute which would say so, and there isn't. As we know there cannot be a fine for a civil mater as this would be against common law doctrine.

I inquired some years ago about the issue of if a term of imprisonment would result in a record as regards to CRB etc, I received a e-mail back from the police in Tameside saying that it would not, as it would not be a criminal conviction, it said however that there would be a record kept of the event, but it would not show up on standard or enhanced disclosure requests. This was a few years ago, so it may have changed, but the logic seems sound to me so I consider it unlikely.

There are people of course who just refuse to pay, they may have some point they are trying to prove or whatever. Sentencing them to prison under the council enforcement regs would only be a civil sentence and not merit any criminal sanctions.

Failure to pay a liability order is not a criminal offence. Thankfully we are not yet at the stage in this country where we criminalize people for none payment of bills, even council tax.

Incidentally this another reason why bailiffs cannot force entry on civil(council tax) warrants. (without prior consensual entry)
On fines they can as these are criminal matters and come under the DVCA(criminal legislation)

[teaboy2]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Ok so there maybe a bit of uncertainty about non compliance of the liability order, though my view is its an order by the court, so should be treated the same as other court orders. But failure to fully provide information or being dishonest in providing said information is and offence - do we agree? As it could be seen as evasion.

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Yes there is the facility for an offence under section 56 of the 1992 act for not providing correct information regarding attachment of earnings etc.

[teaboy2]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

Right, well that clarifies where all the confusion lies then - When it comes to people referring to non-payment of council tax being criminal offence. Where in fact, its not the act of not paying, but act of failing to fully and/or honestly provide information requested. I can certainly see people refusing to comply full stop, leading to conviction and prison (as has happened to some). which is where people get the convicted for non payment of council tax idea from.

So in way its is both a civil matter, and a criminal matter, but whether it is criminal depends on whether the debtor cooperates fully and honestly or not. Which is more or less what i original said. And i can only assuming this was what Bluebottle was referring too.

[Guest]

Re: Dog Fouling/Council Tax Debate (Argument Thread)

As for the liability order itself ,all it does is enable the baiuliff the levy distress under the distress for rent rules and the council tax admin regs, we all know that the debtor can just tell the bailiff to go away, they have no other legal power under the order. There certainly is no criminal power of arrest for instance for none compliance.