Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

[CTCW]

I've tried to read as much as I can on here, great resource, but cant find specific answer to our problem.

We rent out a flat in London Borough of Harrow whcih my partner owns and was formerly her home. Tenants moved out end of June 2103 and we had it vacant for 2 months. New tenants in place since Sept 2013.

On the 8th Jan 2014 we received a letter from Newlyn plc at our current address marked 'Take Formal Notice' and demanding we pay £296.41. The letter was dated 19th December 2013 but states 'Delivered by Hand'.

It states 'Take Notice....have been instructed by L B of Harrow....to enforce liability order dated 12/11/13....' as per their standard format letter.

We tried contacting (LB of) Harrow Council by phone and email. Auto reply was allow 4 weeks for reply. Eventually this week we have been able to speak to someone at teh council who says that they cannot deal with this but there was Council Tax due from July and August 2013. We have received nothing in relation to this, the tenants state they have not had anything for our attention and so were blissfully unaware. Apparently on subsequent call we found they had sent demands and liability order to our previous address which we left in Sept 2011 and have moved twice since.

We feel aggrieved that this could happen without our knowledge, yet once Newlyn were involved they have found my partner at our current address straightaway?!

So having got some detail from the council that the amount is £147.41 plus £125 costs (total £272.41).We assume Newlyn have added £24.50 as their costs (in line with usual fees as I have researched).

So today, 24th Jan 2014, we decide to just pay and get it done with. We call Newlyn and get through to a woman would not accept £296.91 but requested £616.41!!!! She wouldn't even engage in conversation just ranted on at me without letting me get a word in.

So we hung up and decided to pay through the Newlyn website. We paid and had receipt for £296.91. But online our account on the Newlyn website states amount still outstanding is £319!!! No mention of why etc.

So where do we go from here? It has destroyed our weekend, we feel totally vunerable to someone banging on the door, liek a hell we can't escape from. We haven't done anything wrong and yet can't find a way and feel like we are about to have our trousers pulled down.

Do we need to write letters? Send a Letter 1. Breakdown of costs, 2. Statutory declaration etc etc?

Feeling really stressed, looking for some guidance on next steps! Please help.

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

You do need to send Letter 1 asking for a breakdown of their alleged fees. I imagine they are claiming for a fictitious levy and seizure fees. One of the reasons they feel the need to do this is because Harrow insist on a kickback from the Bailiffs.

You say they communicated to you at an address from 2011. Since moving have you at any time told them you moved and given them your new details. If the answer is no then really the Council have done nothing wrong as they may write to your last known address.

[CTCW]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Thanks Ploddertom

We advised change of address when we moved, and also had separate correspondence regarding planning permission over the last 2-3 years relating to the same property. We had to stress change of address (to current) regarding that as they kept sending all PP forms to the property which ultimately led to us not having PP extended. One would assume they have a central database however do not expect perfection. What I would expect is some reasonable level of understanding given the circumstances; that we haven't sought to evade payment or anything like that.

The subsequent moves we didn't have any reason to notify the Council specifically as tenants were long term, and assumed that all correspondence would go to the property it relates to anyway, as that is what they have always done. We have always collected this. They have email and phone on record, its not like we disappeared. LBH have proved to be pretty incompetent regarding everything we have had cause to be in touch with them.

Should the letter be sent recorded or signed for?

Should we also send a recorded letter to the Council explaining the full situation (further to the email we sent stating this)?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

You do need to send Letter 1 asking for a breakdown of their alleged fees. I imagine they are claiming for a fictitious levy and seizure fees. One of the reasons they feel the need to do this is because Harrow insist on a kickback from the Bailiffs.

The reply from Newlyn will probably contain their usual blend of bluster and obstruction, as they have the quaint idea that they do not need to name the bailiff nor state whence he obtained his certificate. Perhaps because Harrow Council expects to get about a million quid a year from the buggers, they seem to be allowed to do much as they please.

Nevertheless, obtaining some sort of breakdown of their fees is the correct first step to take.

You say they communicated to you at an address from 2011. Since moving have you at any time told them you moved and given them your new details. If the answer is no then really the Council have done nothing wrong other than to take 8% commission from the bailiff company as they may write to your last known address.

I've fixed your post for you.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Should the letter be sent recorded or signed for?

Do you think the gits might deny having received it?

Do fish swim in the sea? :grin:

One word of warning, though: some silly sites tell you to submit a Form 4 complaint about a bailiff. Do not do this unless you want to lose a lot of money.

[CTCW]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

This afternoon we have received a scanned copy of reply to 'Letter 1' by email.

I'm unfamiliar with jargon and dont want to assume what levy means but are the charges:

[ploddertom]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Sounds like the usual waffle from Newlyn. Ask them to prove they visited on the dates they claim. As for the levy have they ever left a Notice of Seizure - if it is something you know nothing about then you must challenge them over it. It is your right to know about the Bailiff as for all you know he is not Certificated and this is what you need to check yourself and will not believe anything they tell you.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

This is likely to be quite a long reply.

I'm unfamiliar with jargon and don't want to assume what levy means

In this context, it means that some bästärd bailiff claims to have seized one or more of your goods and chattels, to be sold subsequently if you do not pay the alleged debt. As the oaf did not enter your house and as he seems not even to have deigned to leave a Form 7 Notice of Seizure, it seems likely that he conducted a "drive-by levy" of a motor car near your house. This might be your motor car or it might not, as the clod wouldn't be too fussy about legal niceties such as only levying distress on the debtor's goods.

but [here] are the charges:

And they are quite as fanciful as ever.

Council Debt £272.41
Visit fee £24.50 8th Jan
Visit Fee £18 18th Jan
Levy Fees £42 25th Jan

Even if the levy had been valid - which, without a Form 7 being left, it wasn't - the levy fee is quite wrong. It should be £34.

Attendance to Remove Fee £235 25th Jan

That only applies after they have a valid levy and after an opportunity has been given for payment to be made.

Schedule 5 Head h fee £24.50 25th Jan

Not applicable at all, as that refers to release of levied (and removed) goods,

Debit card surcharge £1

Not listed in the Regulations and hence that may not lawfully be charged.

Paid £297.91
Balance outstanding £319.50

Wrong.

We received the very first notification of anything relating to this Council Tax Bill etc on the 8th Jan BY HAND through the door.

The first visit is therefore documented as having occurred.

Our first move was to call the council and make enquiries as to what this was all about. Its not easy if you work to spend hours on hold trying to get through, so emails were also sent without reply due to response time being up to 4 weeks.

A response time of "up to 4 weeks" is itself evidence of maladministration.

On the 18th Jan at NO POINT did anyone call round. My partner works at home all day on her PC as she does every Friday. No letters received, no notes, nothing.

18/01/2014 was a Saturday.

We had a second phone call to the Council on Fri 24th Jan. I advised we should just pay the £296.41 and be done with it on the Saturday morning. This is when the cost jumped to £616. We paid the £296.41 at around 11am-12noon via the Newlyn website.

That was a serious mistake, as the bästärd bailiffs take their fees first, before they pass on to the council anything that may be left after they've run out of ideas for fees to charge.

You have thus paid the council nothing.

At NO POINT on the 25th Jan did anyone come round. I was at home ALL day. No letters, no notes, nothing.

Another Saturday. As I indicated above, it was probably an invalid, "drive by" levy.

Monday 27th Jan I called the Council and expressed how stressful this all was and that my partner was deeply worried and scared and it was affecting her. I demanded to have the problem escalated.

To whom was it to be escalated?

Tues 28th my partner spoke to Newlyn and they said the fees were legitimate and correct

Guess what?

Bailiffs tell lies!

Wednesday 29th I received a call from the same Council employee basically saying they could call off the bailiff for 2 weeks to allow this to be resolved.

Wasn't that nice?

They might call off their duly appointed ruffians for up to a fortnight to give you time to stump up their demanded Danegeld.

Friday, above breakdown of fees were received.

At least you'll have something about which to write to the Director of Finance and/or the CEO of Harrow Council.

You should also write to your elected councillors, the Fuhrer of the Council, the Leader of the Opposition (or of the Official Resistance) as well as your MP. Do not bother with the Popular Front for the Liberation of Harrow, for they are just useless splitters.

I want to apply to the Court to have this all looked at, how do I do that? I worked out it must be Willesden Magistrates Court as that is who Harrow Council say on their website issues these.

In my opinion, that would be a waste of time, effort and money, as the issue of Liability Orders is a mere administrative procedure done by the use of a rubber stamp.

Should we use a solicitor or is that expensive and an unrecoverable cost?

It should not be necessary and may actually impair your prospects of a successful outcome when you report your corrupt borough's maladministration to the Local Government Ombudsman.

Also the letter is marked Without Prejudice

Foolish twaddle - if it presents evidence of overcharging and/or fraud, then it can certainly be produced in court.

and also contains this paragraph:

"We are unwilling to provide bailiffs name and court details at this time as we feel this request to be vexatious and unnecessary..."

As obstructive as ever!

[bizzybob]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Get that Formal Complaint in, and when the twonks reject it, do a second escalation, then when they kick out, the second, and the third one go to the LGO. The letter you have is a good one to use to frame the complaint as there is adequate evidence of fraud and muppetry in there to also be useful later to go to LGO.

[enquirer]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Given that the property was empty, it is surprising that you did not contact the council with a view to obtaining the tax-free period of grace granted to empty properties.

As other posters have pointed out, because they wrote to your last known address (as no doubt, did the court), it will, in the first instance, be difficult to pin this on the council directly.

You can however get to them through the actions of their agents, for which they are vicariously liable.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Part of the problem here may be that Harrow Council - which expects to "make" at least a million quid from its demanded cut of the bailiffs' profits - does rather seem to be every bit as bent as a nine shilling banknote.

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Newlyns' claim that requesting a bailiff's name and court of certification is "vexatious" is well-known and their refusal to furnish these details may, in itself, be vexatious and may even be unlawful. One of their directors was branded a "liar" by a judge during a hearing, a statement which, in itself, says a lot about Newlyns.

[CTCW]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Given that the property was empty, it is surprising that you did not contact the council with a view to obtaining the tax-free period of grace granted to empty properties.

As other posters have pointed out, because they wrote to your last known address (as no doubt, did the court), it will, in the first instance, be difficult to pin this on the council directly.

You can however get to them through the actions of their agents, for which they are vicariously liable.

Thanks but since April 2013 I understood there was no longer a grace period for Council Tax on empty properties, it is up to the discretion of the Council.

And regarding 'last known address' this is not correct. We had correspondence from the Council here at our present address during the summer regarding lapsed planning permission. Again, this is because they sent the paperwork to our old address despite the application showing this address. So at that time, before the property was vacant, my partner visited the Council and updated the planning department with her address and also the front desk. So we DID update the address and there was no reason for the bills and court order to be sent to our old address (if they actually were as we still have not seen any).

[bluebottle]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

Your most recent post is very damning of the local authority and indicates the obtaining of the Liability Order and subsequent enforcement action may well be unlawful, if not, illegal. You need to speak to a legal professional at the earliest possible opportunity about having the Liability Order quashed.

If what you say is correct, the local authority may well have committed a number of civil torts and its officers may have committed a number of criminal offences. Notwithstanding, it looks evident that your rights under the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) have been breached, putting the local authority, its elected members and officers in breach of Section 6, Human Rights Act 1998. This provision renders breaches of ECHR by public authorities unlawful acts and means they can be held to account by the courts. This also means that Newlyns, its directors, officers, managers, employees and bailiffs are also subject to ECHR and HRA whilst acting for a local authority. If you have to, use the National Pro Bono Centre. See Clever Clog's Post #8 and click on the link.

[bizzybob]

Re: Council Tax on rented property - unaware of liability and now bailiff involved

If you are up to date with council tax at your current residence and the council are aware of where you are, the obtaining of a LO by sendinmg all mail to your previous address is maladministration at best. I suspect LB Harrow engineered the situation to garner fees for themselves andf Newlyn, if indeed that is true, and not just a feck up, then legal advice is essential, but bear in mind that will remove the right to go to Ombudsman, if you take legal proceedings.

However as BB points out there prima facie breaches of ECHR.