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Thread: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

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    Default So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    The bailiffs will be laughing their socks off - how will they know not to levy/clamp/seize on a vehicle that is doubly untouchable - i.e. Blue Badge (which may or may not be displayed at the time) AND disabled tax disc? "Oh, I didn't know, how could I have known" (uttered in tones of fake shock and horror). (Not, of course, that that's stopped them in the past.)

    And, I wonder how that's going to work in the carparks that say free for disabled tax disc holders - could well lead to more tickets and more bailiff actions.

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    As has been mentioned too this morning being sold a second hand car that has 11 months tax on it (or maybe not), also cars abandoned can be towed if the tax is out of date. Apparently you can phone DVLA to fined out certain things, but if they have a phone system like the HMRC you could be dead before you find the info out.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    It clearly sounds like some disingenuous creeps are deliberately trying to stir up trouble. The way to deal with this is for peeps to bombard their MPs with complaints and give Cabbage Patch Cameron and Gideon Osborne a hard time about it, too. They'll soon learn they aren't in charge. It's also time to let their civil serpents know they aren't in charge either. Both are servants of the people, not their masters.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Perhaps the number of ANPR cameras will increase and when an untaxed car is seen the traffic police will be called to catch the offender seize the car and fine them ,
    That will keep untaxed cars off the road.

    I am now fully awake ! Major problem?Where are the police to do this?

    Anther cunning plan from HMs Government thought out over a beer and written on a fag packet

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by wales01man View Post
    Perhaps the number of ANPR cameras will increase and when an untaxed car is seen the traffic police will be called to catch the offender seize the car and fine them ,
    That will keep untaxed cars off the road.

    I am now fully awake ! Major problem?Where are the police to do this?

    Anther cunning plan from HMs Government thought out over a beer and written on a fag packet
    Plus those following an agenda that wasn't in the political parties' manifestos when they conned the electorate at the last General Election.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Does anyone really believe what ANY politician says to get elected?
    I may disagree with your vision of a new political system but I agree with your views on politicians and so called Civil servants

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    If the bailiff is following procedure, he'll have a recent valid DVLA check (within last 60 days preferably) on any vehicle he wishes to seize. The lack of a tax disc will have little bearing on matters as the DVLA check includes clear markers for vehicles registered for disabled drivers and / or owned by motability finance.

    There may of course be situations where a bailiff legally seizes a vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to while a DVLA check in carried out and these could be problematic in the short term until ownership has been established. That said, any bailiff taking such action may well have to properly justify such actions or risk losing his badge.

    As for car parks displaying 'free for disabled tax disc holders', these signs would simply need amending to 'blue badge holders' which I believe most are already.

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by wales01man View Post
    I agree with your views on politicians and so called Civil servants

    I call those varmints Swivel Servants.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Drunk View Post
    If the bailiff is following procedure, he'll have a recent valid DVLA check (within last 60 days preferably) on any vehicle he wishes to seize. The lack of a tax disc will have little bearing on matters as the DVLA check includes clear markers for vehicles registered for disabled drivers and / or owned by motability finance. Nothwithstanding DVLA's talent for cocking things up. Also, the reality of bailiffs and DVLA checks is that the buggers claim to have carried them out, when, in fact, they have not.

    There may of course be situations where a bailiff legally seizes a vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to while a DVLA check in carried out and these could be problematic in the short term until ownership has been established. That said, any bailiff taking such action may well have to properly justify such actions or risk losing his badge.n't Any bailiff who seizes a vehicle without have first conducted a check with DVLA is going to have more than the loss of their certificate to worry about.

    As for car parks displaying 'free for disabled tax disc holders', these signs would simply need amending to 'blue badge holders' which I believe most are already. Some local authorities provide free parking to Disabled VEL holders only and not Blue Badge holders, whilst others have a "Blue Badge Holders" policy. They need to think about that before implementing their proposals. It might help if they thought things through first and did not rush things out and wring their hands when everything goes mammaries up.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Drunk View Post
    If the bailiff is following procedure, he'll have a recent valid DVLA check (within last 60 days preferably) on any vehicle he wishes to seize.


    That is surely your best joke yet.

    Bailiffs seize first and - maybe - think later. Even the useless "guidelines" and "best practice" twaddle only suggests checking DVLA data when the bailiff wants to lift a vehicle - which could have been clamped for days or weeks by then.

    There may of course be situations where a bailiff legally seizes a vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to while a DVLA check in carried out and these could be problematic in the short term until ownership has been established. That said, any bailiff taking such action may well have to properly justify such actions or risk losing his badge.
    It must be truly wonderful to have such a delightfully innocent and naive view of the world.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Drunk View Post
    If the bailiff is following procedure, he'll have a recent valid DVLA check (within last 60 days preferably) on any vehicle he wishes to seize. The lack of a tax disc will have little bearing on matters as the DVLA check includes clear markers for vehicles registered for disabled drivers and / or owned by motability finance.

    As for car parks displaying 'free for disabled tax disc holders', these signs would simply need amending to 'blue badge holders' which I believe most are already.
    Monkeydrunk - re the bit I bolded above - can you elaborate please - are you saying that if a bailiff did a DVLA check on a vehicle he could be in no doubt if it had a disabled nil rate tax disc? As in that info would automatically be supplied without him having to ask about it specifically? Does anyone have a link/document showing that? Pretty pretty please - it would go a long way to dropping a certain bailiff even deeper in the excrement :-)

    Also, re the carparks - at the moment, there are some that say blue badges pay but disabled tax discs don't. So that would lead to loss of revenue which I can't imagine would be popular if extended to all blue badge holders........

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Most of the problems with parking and minor traffic enforcements stem from assumptions and presumptions that have no basis of fact and in this case there seems to be a line of thought that a bailiff should contact the DVLA before ascertaining the identity of the registered keeper.

    Sorry to pop this extra assumption and presumption but there is no statute which supports this. Not the Traffic Management Act 2004, Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993, Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations 1993 or the Civil Procedure Rules, TEC Users Guide or Department of Transport Operational Guide (Parking Policy). Most of all not the Data Protection Act 1998 which actively prevents such an occurence.

    Its one of those myths that has been around long enough to obtain the status of 'It must be true because we have always done it this way and because of that we believe it to be true'.

    Please do not make it worse by pointing out that the BPA members are entitled to receive information from the DVLA. When did this country pass a law to say that this single private members club is exempt from statute and can dictate policy to the DVLA?

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by wales01man View Post
    Does anyone really believe what ANY politician says to get elected? No!
    I may disagree with your vision of a new political system but I agree with your views on politicians and so called Civil servants What you call "vision" is what is needed to stop the corruption that is inherent in the current political system. I had to deal with MPs and civil serpents when I was in the police, so speak from experience. Btw, have you seen that the MP who allegedly called a police officer a "pleb" is being sued by the officer concerned for libel? Perhaps said MP might now realise he is a servant of the people, not one of their masters, and that he is subject to the same laws as everyone else.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    ... the MP who allegedly called a police officer a "pleb" is being sued by the officer concerned for libel
    I have a feeling that senior officers will be keen to speak to him very soon (particularly those nearing retirement who can see their K disappearing over the horizon).

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by enquirer View Post
    I have a feeling that senior officers will be keen to speak to him very soon
    With or without coffee?
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebottle View Post
    Any bailiff who seizes a vehicle without have first conducted a check with DVLA is going to have more than the loss of their certificate to worry about.
    If the bailiff has good reason to believe a vehicle is owned by the debtor named on the court order (such as when the debtor is seen driving the vehicle), they have every right to seize the vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to without first checking with the DVLA. Cars are no different from any other assets, especially when parked within the grounds of the warrant address. It is simply good practice to check with the DVLA first.


    Quote Originally Posted by CleverClogs View Post


    That is surely your best joke yet.


    Bailiffs seize first and - maybe - think later. Even the useless "guidelines" and "best practice" twaddle only suggests checking DVLA data when the bailiff wants to lift a vehicle - which could have been clamped for days or weeks by then.




    It must be truly wonderful to have such a delightfully innocent and naive view of the world.

    The world I live in is certainly not innocent and my view of the world certainly isn't naive. I've been working in the industry for a decade now so I like to think I've got some experience with these matters. Of the 700 or so certificated bailiffs operating in England and Wales that attempt to execute thousands of warrants on a daily basis, this website along with the other established help forums get maybe a handful of new threads on a daily basis if they're lucky. If you think what you read on here is a fair reflection of the "norm" then I suggest it is you who has a naive and innocent view of the world.


    Considering how long you've been a member here and the number of posts you've amassed, maybe it's about time you got out more into the real world instead of spending so much time putting the world to rights in here? It's easy to get wrapped up in an online world and unfortunately, when you constantly read the same old anti-establishment mantra from the same people every day, it's understandable that you start to think the same as your peers.


    Quote Originally Posted by dementedfeline View Post
    Monkeydrunk - re the bit I bolded above - can you elaborate please - are you saying that if a bailiff did a DVLA check on a vehicle he could be in no doubt if it had a disabled nil rate tax disc? As in that info would automatically be supplied without him having to ask about it specifically? Does anyone have a link/document showing that? Pretty pretty please - it would go a long way to dropping a certain bailiff even deeper in the excrement :-)
    The DVLA reports I see on a daily basis are very clear when it comes to motability vehicles. The registered keepers name is followed by a series of random numbers which clearly denote a motability interest.

    Vehicles which are just registered "disabled" are not so obvious as the motability cars. The report simply contains the word "Disabled" on a section of the report but to be honest could easily be missed if not paying proper attention.

    Unfortunately, I couldn't post an example due to data protection.
    Last edited by Tools; 6th December 2013 at 23:38:PM. Reason: irrelevant insults removed

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    MD,

    As I am sure you are well aware, a court would expect a certificated bailiff to carry out sufficient checks to establish they had a right in law to seize a motor vehicle. Seizing a third party vehicle without conducting sufficient checks and then expect nothing to happen is, if I may say, being a little too optimistic to say the least. Jacobs, a certificated bailiff operation, found out just how expensive seizing a third-party vehicle without conducting sufficient checks can be.

    Any certificated bailiff who fails to carry out sufficient checks as to the ownership of a motor vehicle before attempting to seize it for whatever reason should not be surprised if it comes back and bites them hard on the backside. Bailiffs who claim they can seize third-party goods, knowing very well they cannot, deserve to lose their certificates as this clearly raises questions as to their fitness to act as a bailiff.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Drunk View Post
    If the bailiff has good reason to believe a vehicle is owned by the debtor named on the court order (such as when the debtor is seen driving the vehicle), they have every right to seize the vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to without first checking with the DVLA. Cars are no different from any other assets, especially when parked within the grounds of the warrant address. It is simply good practice to check with the DVLA first.
    When I was in the business it took at least 3/4 days to get a reply from DVLA, and one was restricted to no more than a couple of searches at the time for the same address, so I used to do a bit of a recce first, and if I spotted a vehicle on warrant address I would look at the tax disc to make sure it did not state "nil" on the bit where the VEL had the cost of it on it.

    Without a tax disc it is going to cause a few useless enquiries which cost time and money.

    If this bunch of muppets that runs the Country think that they are going to save money by doing away with the tax disc then they really are in cloud coockoo land, because it would mean fitting every single Police vehicle with ANPR facilities, and that ain't cheap!
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Sorry but there are NO court orders or debtors in alleged parking and minor traffic contraventions. Those subject to allegations of owing money should not be considered to be a debtor until a court of law decides that after giving the accused every chance to explain themselves.

    My post also clearly stated that no bailiff has the lawful right to receive personal information from the DVLA. I did quote several statutes and rules. If my interpretation of any those is wrong or I have failed to quote a relevant statute, then it would benefit us all to learn just where it says a baliff is entitled to other people's private personal information over civil debt allegations.

    The essence of my post is that there are far too many assumptions and presumptions about laws and rules that do not exist which then metamorphose into 'facts'.

    The points I made seem to have been overlooked.
    Last edited by Fair-Parking; 6th December 2013 at 11:14:AM.

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey Drunk View Post
    If the bailiff has good reason to believe a vehicle is owned by the debtor named on the court order (such as when the debtor is seen driving the vehicle), they have every right to seize the vehicle to ascertain who it belongs to without first checking with the DVLA. Cars are no different from any other assets, especially when parked within the grounds of the warrant address. It is simply good practice to check with the DVLA first.




    Vehicles which are just registered "disabled" are not so obvious as the motability cars. The report simply contains the word "Disabled" on a section of the report but to be honest could easily be missed if not paying proper attention.
    Monkey Drunk - I accept that we shouldn't tar all bailiffs with the same brush - BUT my friend recently had an unpleasant experience with one who a) did NOT have a valid warrant and b) despite having done a DVLA check AND being told about blue badge/disabled tax disc AND being shown the V5 CLAMPED her car and threatened her with tow truck, etc. He also breached National Standards like it was going out of fashion.

    Quite frankly, he couldn't give a toss about anything except his money.

    When people have experiences like this, plus the routine overstating of their powers, do you wonder why bailiffs are a maligned species? (With apologies to those who don't overstep the mark and do their job according to the rules.)

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Fair-Parking View Post
    Sorry but there are NO court orders or debtors in alleged parking and minor traffic contraventions. Those subject to allegations of owing money should not be considered to be a debtor until a court of law decides that after giving the accused every chance to explain themselves.


    My post also clearly stated that no bailiff has the lawful right to receive personal information from the DVLA. I did quote several statutes and rules. If my interpretation of any those is wrong or I have failed to quote a relevant statute, then it would benefit us all to learn just where it says a baliff is entitled to other people's private personal information over civil debt allegations.


    The essence of my post is that there are far too many assumptions and presumptions about laws and rules that do not exist which then metamorphose into 'facts'.


    The points I made seem to have been overlooked.



    The points you made were overlooked because they weren't worth commenting on. To accept what you say is to accept that all bailiff and parking companies have no legal right to check data with the DVLA. As such you further suggest the DVLA breaks the law on a daily basis by supplying such data. Comments worthy of ridicule to the highest degree if I was that way inclined.


    In addition, if bailiffs are involved, a Court of Law has decided that a "person" (if you prefer that term) has had ample opportunity to defend themselves. Until further information or appeals prove otherwise, the "people" I chase are debtors or "defendants" (if HMCTS fines) if you want to split hairs....




    Quote Originally Posted by dementedfeline View Post
    Monkey Drunk - I accept that we shouldn't tar all bailiffs with the same brush - BUT my friend recently had an unpleasant experience with one who a) did NOT have a valid warrant and b) despite having done a DVLA check AND being told about blue badge/disabled tax disc AND being shown the V5 CLAMPED her car and threatened her with tow truck, etc. He also breached National Standards like it was going out of fashion.


    Quite frankly, he couldn't give a toss about anything except his money.


    When people have experiences like this, plus the routine overstating of their powers, do you wonder why bailiffs are a maligned species? (With apologies to those who don't overstep the mark and do their job according to the rules.)

    It's complete idiots like this that give the entire industry a bad name. Hopefully, this kind of illegal behaviour will be a thing of the past once all bailiffs companies adopt body worn cameras. CCTV is an amazing behaviour regulator!!
    Last edited by Tools; 6th December 2013 at 23:41:PM. Reason: irrelevant insults removed

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    [QUOTE=Monkey Drunk;393423]

    The points you made were overlooked because they weren't worth commenting on. To accept what you say is to accept that all bailiff and parking companies have no legal right to check data with the DVLA. As such you further suggest the DVLA breaks the law on a daily basis by supplying such data. Comments worthy of ridicule to the highest degree if I was that way inclined.

    In addition, if bailiffs are involved, a Court of Law has decided that a "person" (if you prefer that term) has had ample opportunity to defend themselves. Until further information or appeals prove otherwise, the "people" I chase are debtors or "defendants" (if HMCTS fines) if you want to split hairs....

    Not so, I'm afraid. The Northampton TEC is not a court of law in the normal sense of the word. It is a star chamber where the defendant is not allowed to even defend themselves. As for Council Tax, there is hard evidence that a high percentage of Liability Orders aren't worth the paper they are written on. This brings into question the legality of the enforcement of CT Liability Orders. As for HMCTS fines, a high percentage of fines originated by Capita/TV Licensing are either fraudulent or No Case. Explain why a number of TV Licensing goons are serving community or custodial sentences for Fraud and Perverting the Course of Justice? DVLA have been caught trying to register fines the courts have ruled are unlawful.


    It's complete idiots like this that give the entire industry a bad name. Hopefully, this kind of illegal behaviour will be a thing of the past once all bailiffs companies adopt body worn cameras. CCTV is an amazing behaviour regulator!!

    It's complete idiots in the civil enforcement industry who lie, cheat, bully and behave like two-bit gangsters who give the civil enforcement industry a bad name, not internet advice forums. Your arguments and rants might be taken more seriously if it was aimed at those in the civil enforcement industry who are a menace to debtors, defendants and creditors alike.

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Several posts edited/removed.

    Both sides of the debate are welcomed, offensive comments are not, please keep to the topic guys/gals.
    Any opinions I give are my own. Any advice I give is without liability. If you are unsure, please seek qualified legal advice.

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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Just my personal opinion.

    I think the phasing out of tax discs makes sense in todays world. However, I agree that there could be/will be problems arising from this, one of them being Bailiffs who do not carry out the correct checks.

    I also see many other issues with it and they need to be identified now and addressed before they become a problem. One quite major one is the registration online, not everyone has online access. I assume as you pay for your tax, whether it be online, at the Post Office or via Direct Debit, there will be a trigger/marker placed on DVLA`s database which instantly shows the vehicle is taxed.

    If so then this would be easily accessible to those that need to know, DVLA, Police, Insurers and yes.....even Bailiffs. With todays technology I am sure that a Bailiff can quickly see the status of tax on a vehicle and need not have to wait 3? days to hear back from the DVLA.

    MD ( and others ) does it cost a Bailiff to carry out a check with the DVLA? I genuinely do not know.
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    Default Re: So, the government's doing away with tax discs ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by Tools View Post
    I think the phasing out of tax discs makes sense in today's world.
    Why?

    As far as I know, we do not (yet) have bionic or actually robotic policemen; some might behave like automata, but I believe they are still fully biological.

    However, I agree that there could be/will be problems arising from this, one of them being Bailiffs who do not carry out the correct checks.
    That is only one of the problems. Another is spotting untaxed vehicles, whilst another is the propensity for the DVLA to make mistakes.

    I also see many other issues with it and they need to be identified now and addressed before they become a problem. One quite major one is the registration online, not everyone has online access. I assume as you pay for your tax, whether it be online, at the Post Office or via Direct Debit, there will be a trigger/marker placed on DVLA`s database which instantly shows the vehicle is taxed.

    If so then this would be easily accessible to those that need to know, DVLA, Police, Insurers and yes.....even Bailiffs. With todays technology I am sure that a Bailiff can quickly see the status of tax on a vehicle and need not have to wait 3? days to hear back from the DVLA.
    The police may be able to tell quickly - by means of a call to HQ - whether a vehicle is insured or taxed, but it would still be a lot slower than looking along a line of parked vehicles to see which either had the wrong colour of tax disc or no disc displayed at all. The Mark 1 eyeball is still a lot faster than a manually operated computer check.

    The stated reason for this silliness by the kakistocracy is that it would "save" £7,000,000 a year in admin costs. The sensible answer to that is to increase Vehicle Excise Duty by £1 per year for motor-bikes and motor-cars, and by £3 per year for lorries and heavier vehicles.

    MD ( and others ) does it cost a Bailiff to carry out a check with the DVLA? I genuinely do not know.
    It would cost the company, in the same way that data from the DVLA is sold to the private parking parasites.
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

    For FREE legal representation, go to the National Probono Centre

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