Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

[Golden boxer]

I have been reading through these forums and hope that someone may be able to offer advice.

My brother is living at my house at the moment and while we were away last week received two hand delivered letters from Jacobs. The first dated 29th October saying in red REMOVAL 24 HOURS As bailiff in charge I am now instructed to proceed with the removal and sale of your goods. Removal may take place even in your absence. The second dated 31 October saying in red REMOVAL 5pm TODAY as previously advised full payment is now required to prevent enforcement action. Removal may take place even in your absence.

My brother owes £2451.87 to the council for business rates on a business he had to close in February 2012 but he still accrued rates up to November 2012 as he was still the leaseholder. He does not dispute the debt and had been paying the council £20 per month, but they were originally charging him for a full 12 months and they told him to stop the payments while they adjusted the figure and they would contact him to arrange a new payment arrangement. My brother didnt realise that in a letter back in May the council were asking for him to contact them if he couldnt pay the full amount. The council have apparently written 3 times since asking for him to make the payment and warning of further action but he has not received those letters.

They have now handed it over to Jacobs who are claiming £2734.87 + costs! My brother spoke to the council this morning and offered to pay £80 per month if they take the debt back. They refused and said he has to deal with Jacobs. He hasn't spoken to Jacobs, we have all the doors and windows locked and I have told my brother to move his car off the drive away from the property.

i am worried because this is my house and everything in it is owned by me (apart from my brothers clothing/toiletries etc). Anything my brother owns of value is still sitting in his old business premises which is sitting empty and he no longer holds the lease.

Can Jacobs come and take my car which is sitting on my driveway?
How long will they continue to try and gain entry before passing the debt back to the council?

we are wondering what order we should proceed with the advice given on here. Should my brother start making weekly payments to the council starting today? Does he need to send a letter about is to the council or just make the regular payments and keep proof? Should he email the letter to Jacobs about the fees? Should he write the first letter to the council about the fees Jacobs have added to the debt?

Any advice gratefully received as I feel like a criminal locked up in my own home and don't want to carry on living like this indefinitely. I have had to tell both my kids to keep all doors and windows locked and we cant leave the back door open for our dog to go out and I am worried about my car which I need for work and school runs.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

I have been reading through these forums and hope that someone may be able to offer advice.

My brother is living at my house at the moment and while we were away last week received two hand delivered letters from Jacobs. The first dated 29th October saying in red REMOVAL 24 HOURS As bailiff in charge I am now instructed to proceed with the removal and sale of your goods. Removal may take place even in your absence. The second dated 31 October saying in red REMOVAL 5pm TODAY as previously advised full payment is now required to prevent enforcement action. Removal may take place even in your absence. The threats are sailing close to the wind in the legal sense. A bailiff has to have a valid and lawful levy or a court order, signed in ink by a judge, in order to remove goods, even in the absence of the debtor. Making such threats without lawful authority is Misrepresentation of Powers, at the least, potentially, a criminal offence, at worst.

My brother owes £2451.87 to the council for business rates on a business he had to close in February 2012 but he still accrued rates up to November 2012 as he was still the leaseholder. He does not dispute the debt and had been paying the council £20 per month, but they were originally charging him for a full 12 months and they told him to stop the payments while they adjusted the figure and they would contact him to arrange a new payment arrangement. My brother didnt realise that in a letter back in May the council were asking for him to contact them if he couldnt pay the full amount. The council have apparently written 3 times since asking for him to make the payment and warning of further action but he has not received those letters.

They have now handed it over to Jacobs who are claiming £2734.87 + costs! My brother spoke to the council this morning and offered to pay £80 per month if they take the debt back. They refused and said he has to deal with Jacobs. He hasn't spoken to Jacobs, we have all the doors and windows locked and I have told my brother to move his car off the drive away from the property.

i am worried because this is my house and everything in it is owned by me (apart from my brothers clothing/toiletries etc). Anything my brother owns of value is still sitting in his old business premises which is sitting empty and he no longer holds the lease. Was the business a sole trader or a limited company? If the latter, they can only seize and sell goods belonging to the company.

Can Jacobs come and take my car which is sitting on my driveway? No. They can only lawfully levy on and seize goods belonging to a debtor. They would be in very serious trouble indeed, as well as expose the local authority to civil litigation, if they attempted to seize and remove goods belonging to a third party.
How long will they continue to try and gain entry before passing the debt back to the council? It depends on what address is on the Liability Order. If it is your address, I would get along to a solicitor and swear a Statutory Declaration to the effect that all goods within your home are your property and that of your family and that your car - include Vehicle Registration Mark - is your property. Serve a copy of the SD on both the local authority and Jacobs. Any High Street solicitor can do an SD for you for £5-£10. Check the stickies for NNDR SDs and amend accordingly.

we are wondering what order we should proceed with the advice given on here. Should my brother start making weekly payments to the council starting today? Use the local authority's automated payment system. Does he need to send a letter about is to the council or just make the regular payments and keep proof? Make payments and keep proof. A local authority is not permitted to refuse payments. Should he email the letter to Jacobs about the fees?Should he write the first letter to the council about the fees Jacobs have added to the debt? Fees bailiffs enforcing arrears of NNDR can lawfully charge are regulated by law. Anything over and above what the law permits them to charge is deemed unlawful or illegal, depending on how brazen the bailiffs are and how stupidly they behave, i.e. trying to kid the debtor they can charge fees the law does not permit them to charge. You can request a breakdown of fees which bailiffs must provide on request and without charge. Any failure or refusal on the part of the bailiffs to provide a breakdown should set alarm bells ringing.
Any advice gratefully received as I feel like a criminal locked up in my own home and don't want to carry on living like this indefinitely. I have had to tell both my kids to keep all doors and windows locked and we cant leave the back door open for our dog to go out and I am worried about my car which I need for work and school runs. Good advice and as long as the bailiffs cannot gain entry, they are stuffed.

BB
BB

[bizzybob]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

All the property in and around the premises are yours, a Statutory Declaration as to this with notarised copies to council and Jacobs with one to hand to the bailiff along with a letter stating that you will pursue Jacobs in the County Court if the remove, levy, clamp or other wise interfere unlawfully with your property, as none of the goods on the premises are the property of the named debtor.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

All the property in and around the premises are yours, a Statutory Declaration as to this with notarised copies to council and Jacobs with one to hand to the bailiff along with a letter stating that you will pursue Jacobs in the County Court if the remove, levy, clamp or other wise interfere unlawfully with your property, as none of the goods on the premises are the property of the named debtor.

The SD should do that in itself, BB, but, as we know, Jacobs are under the misguided belief they can ignore such legal documents. Perhaps it will take another expensive episode to teach them that seizing third-party goods is not on and they will carry the can, financially, for their misconduct and that of their employees.

[bizzybob]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

The SD should do that in itself, BB, but, as we know, Jacobs are under the misguided belief they can ignore such legal documents. Perhaps it will take another expensive episode to teach them that seizing third-party goods is not on and they will carry the can, financially, for their misconduct and that of their employees.

Which is why OP puts them on notice fair warned that their muppetry will cost them dearly if they are daft enough to enforce against the third party property.

Jacobs are becoming as nasty as Marstons, and are out of control.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

Which is why OP puts them on notice fair warned that their muppetry will cost them dearly if they are daft enough to enforce against the third party property.

Jacobs are becoming as nasty as Marstons, and are out of control.

From what I have been able to find out about Jacobs, BB, they are an unincorporated partnership, whereas Marstons is a company. From a law enforcement point of view, unincorporated businesses are easier to deal with than those that are incorporated. The advice to put Jacobs on notice is sound. If they ignore, then they should not be surprised, nor will they be in a position to complain, if it comes back and smacks them in the face. Reminding them of the expensive mistake they made seizing a third-party vehicle and then having to recover it and pay costs, damages and expenses may wind them up, but it will serve as a sharp reminder as to what can happen when you don't keep on the right side of the law and don't ensure your employees do likewise.

[enquirer]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

County Courts Act 1984

s135 Penalty for falsely pretending to act under authority of court.

Any person who - (a) delivers or causes to be delivered to any other person any paper falsely purporting to be a copy of any summons or other process of a county court, knowing it to be false; (or) (b) acts or professes to act under any false colour or pretence of the process or authority of a county court;

- shall be guilty of an offence and shall for each offence be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years.

[bizzybob]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

County Courts Act 1984

s135 Penalty for falsely pretending to act under authority of court.

Any person who - (a) delivers or causes to be delivered to any other person any paper falsely purporting to be a copy of any summons or other process of a county court, knowing it to be false; (or) (b) acts or professes to act under any false colour or pretence of the process or authority of a county court;

- shall be guilty of an offence and shall for each offence be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years.

sadly it won't happen to Jacobs, even though they are threatening to clear OP's house for a sofa surfing relative with less title to anything in the property than a lodger.

If Op does the Stat Dec and they then persist, then maybe Jacobs can be clobbered with it.

[Golden boxer]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

Thank you everyone for your help and advice. My brother made his first weekly payment yesterday via the online system and has kept proof of payment. I will be speaking to a solicitor friend of mine today about the Stat Dec and try to get that sorted today.

My brother said the council told him they did take the matter to court. Does this mean they will have permission from the court to break into my house or will it just be a liability order (or does the liability order give them permission to break in?).

We have tried to find out what address is on the liability order but the council won't give any information. I can only assume it is my address as that is where the letters were hand delivered to.

[Golden boxer]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

"Anything my brother owns of value is still sitting in his old business premises which is sitting empty and he no longer holds the lease. Was the business a sole trader or a limited company? If the latter, they can only seize and sell goods belonging to the company."

Bluebottle my brother was in a partnership but a lot of the debts were in his name only. His ex partner has said they are happy to take on half of this debt but the council have said he has to tell Jacobs this and they won't deal with it unless it gets passed back to them.

The address for the business was on the letters from Jacobs as the address the debt related to. He has tv's, computers, music equipment, fridges, freezers, dishwashers etc and is happy for them to go and take that from there but again council say he has to tell Jacobs that!

[Golden boxer]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

Looking at the stat dec to take to solicitors. The example in stickies says everything is mine in and around house. My brother has personal effects here - clothes, shoes, shaver, toiletries, phone, suitcases etc. bits and pieces that amount to nothing of any value. So what is the best way to reword the stat dec? Do I have to list all the items that are my brothers?

His car is still sitting on the drive. He said he isn't moving it as it is my car. He told me months ago that the car was mine when i lent him money and I drive it all the time but his name is still on the registration doc. Should I class it as mine in the stat dec?

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

"Anything my brother owns of value is still sitting in his old business premises which is sitting empty and he no longer holds the lease. Was the business a sole trader or a limited company? If the latter, they can only seize and sell goods belonging to the company."

Bluebottle my brother was in a partnership but a lot of the debts were in his name only. His ex partner has said they are happy to take on half of this debt but the council have said he has to tell Jacobs this and they won't deal with it unless it gets passed back to them.

The address for the business was on the letters from Jacobs as the address the debt related to. He has tv's, computers, music equipment, fridges, freezers, dishwashers etc and is happy for them to go and take that from there but again council say he has to tell Jacobs that!

From what you are saying, GB, it sounds like the local authority is switched-on, in one sense, by saying what they are saying, but not so switched-on in engaging an operation like Jacobs as enforcement agents, given their reputation for questionable conduct on the part of their bailiffs and blundering, which cost Jacobs dearly. Your brother does need to tell Jacobs to attend the business premises and remove any items that are there, if your brother and his former business partner are willing for Jacobs to remove and sell the items. However, Jacobs must desist from attending your home and be told this in writing. Make sure you send a copy of any letter to Jacobs to the local authority, too. That way, the local authority is aware.

[wales01man]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

If all these electrical goods on the business premise are new why doesn't the brother sell them to pay the debt and get the bailiff off the OPs back

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

If all these electrical goods on the business premise are new why doesn't the brother sell them to pay the debt and get the bailiff off the OPs back

Good advice, Wales. It would probably realise more cash as a distress auction would realise little more than 10% of the value of the goods.

[bluebottle]

Re: Jacobs letters through door - council refuse to take back debt

Thank you everyone for your help and advice. My brother made his first weekly payment yesterday via the online system and has kept proof of payment. I will be speaking to a solicitor friend of mine today about the Stat Dec and try to get that sorted today.

My brother said the council told him they did take the matter to court. Does this mean they will have permission from the court to break into my house or will it just be a liability order (or does the liability order give them permission to break in?).

We have tried to find out what address is on the liability order but the council won't give any information. I can only assume it is my address as that is where the letters were hand delivered to.

Liability Orders do not confer any power or right to break into a debtor's property. Any bailiff who does so on the strength of an LO without having previously gained peaceable entry and obtained a valid and lawful levy or have an order signed in ink by a judge is going to feel a sharp and swift pain in their gluteus maximus.