council tax and council recovery charges

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

i take it the NNDR

IS THE NATIONAL NON DOMESTIC RATES

please confirm

[labman]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

That's usually what NNDR stands for.

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

obvious question

the non domestic rates issue

can that come under the council tax recovery dept as it is not council tax

my point being

are the council reasonable costs inclusive of NNDR when applying the costs against the council tax payer

I.E,

SHAFTING THE COUNCIL TAX PAYER MORE

[outlawlgo]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

NNDR are National Non Domestic Rates, otherwise known as business rates I suppose.

You might want to double check this, but I think they are lumped in with the council tax liability order applications and rubber stamped at the same bulk court hearing.

Although the council's administration process is the same for council tax and NNDR recovery, the costs may differ. This may be a good point to pick up-on, depending on how your council apply the fees and whether or not you are concentrating on your own council or councils in general.

The penalty costs should be the same, so if they differ this indicates that the level has been set for reasons other than for covering reasonable costs incurred.

To demonstrate what I'm talking about;

Bearing in mind council regulations do not permit authorities to profit from court fees, take a look at some of these Cabinet reports from Westminster Council.

City of Westminster Council (August 2003)

It is estimated that the proposed increase in court costs will generate additional revenue of approximately £300,000 per annum

1 SUMMARY OF THIS REPORT

1.1 This report recommends that the Cabinet Member approves a proposal to increase the level of court costs for Council Tax and NNDR Liability Order applications from a current level of £40.75 to £55.00....

4.2 It would appear that the Legal Forum for London has agreed that it is acceptable to have different levels of court costs for Council Tax and NNDR within the same authority. However, in view of the above, legislative restriction it is assumed that this would only be acceptable in instances where an additional administrative cost could be proved in relation to an NNDR Liability Order application.

4.3 An application to the Court to increase the level of costs may require the City Council to provide a Breakdown of administrative costs. The administrative processes for Council Tax and NNDR Liability Order applications are identical and as such it will be difficult to prove a difference in administration costs. It is therefore recommended that the City Council does not differentiate between the level of court costs for Council Tax and NNDR...."

However, look at its next review of court costs:

City of Westminster Council (May 2005)

"It is estimated that the proposed increase in court costs will generate approximately £320,000 additional revenue in a full financial year above the 2004/5 Actual and £200,000 in excess of the 2005/6 budget.

1. SUMMARY OF THIS REPORT

1.1 This report recommends that the Cabinet Member approves a proposal to increase the level of court costs for Council Tax Liability Order applications from £55.00 to £85.00 and for NNDR applications from £55.00 to £100.00...."

4. WHETHER TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE LEVEL OF COURT COSTS FOR COUNCIL TAX & NNDR

4.1 The City Council currently has the same level of costs for Council Tax and NNDR Liability Order applications. It has been identified that some local authorities have a higher level of court costs for Non-Domestic Rate than Council Tax. It appears to have been accepted by their local courts that the increase was more in keeping with the larger sums involved for NNDR, therefore the higher level of costs would be more of a deterrent.

4.2 In last year’s report recommending an increase in the level of Council Tax and NNDR costs, it was recommended that the City Council did not differentiate between the level of costs for Council Tax and NNDR. However, the Legal Forum for London has recently agreed that it is acceptable to have different levels of court costs for Council Tax and NNDR. It is therefore proposed that the City Council approaches Horseferry Road Magistrates Court with an application to increase NNDR costs to a higher level than that set for Council Tax.

They go on to be even greedier in their 2010 review:

City of Westminster Council (June 2010)

The proposed increase in court costs will generate additional revenue of approximately £130,000 in a full year, which can be utilised to offset against the overall cost of the administration of Council Tax and Business Rates (NNDR).

1. Summary

1.1 This report proposes an increase to the level of court costs for Council Tax Liability Order applications from £95.00 to £105.00 and for NNDR Liability Order applications from £165.00 to £185.00...

It's evident that the council officers have developed a sense for what they can get away with. They latched on to the fact that the Magistrates' court approve these unreasonable and unjustified price hikes without opposition, so they maximise the fees. Their only logic for doing so, is not because of increased costs to the council, but that other councils have got away with it.

So the £40.75 Council tax penalties at 2003 rose to £105 in 2010. A 158% increase.

But miraculously, business rate penalties rose from £40.75 to £185. A 354% increase.

This was not due to increased costs to the council, but because the Legal Forum of London let them get away with it.

What did Westminster council say in one of their cabinet reports. Oh yes! The administrative processes for Council Tax and business rates Liability Order applications are identical and as such it will be difficult to prove a difference in administration costs.

• Business rate penalties £185.

• Council tax penalties £105.

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

my question remains though

a debtor gets taken to court for failure to pay council tax

the council ask for £40 addmin costs as reasonably occured

if that £40 includes NNDR recovery costs , WHEN IT IS NOT COUNCIL TAX

can the £40 be challenged as it is not a reasonable charge as the council tax recovery dept incorporates a piece of NNDR

so the council tax payer is funding NNDR as well when costs are awarded

if that makes sense

[outlawlgo]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

If what Westminster council says is true, i.e.

"The administrative processes for Council Tax and NNDR Liability Order applications are identical and as such it will be difficult to prove a difference in administration costs"

Then, if NNDR debtors are paying more in penalties than council taxpayers, it could be viewed that they are having a piece of council tax costs incorporated into their penalties.

I included the example about Westminster to emphasise that councils don't provide supporting evidence to the courts of their incurred costs and they are a law unto themselves. But more importantly they manipulate the penalties unlawfully for their own advantage.

I'd say more importantly that this costs income is funding expenditure incurred by the council which is not permitted in the Council Tax Regulations. The council admitted this in your earlier posts, for example "Sundry Debts" and "bailiff costs". These are not in connection with obtaining the order.

I should imagine your council will be funding a greater part of council tax administration than is attributable to recovery if it was allowed to be scrutinised.

[labman]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

It makes perfect sense. What you're asking is could a person with an LO against them for CT challenge that on the basis that the cost of obtaining then LO was not realistic or fair as it was supplementing the cost of obtaining LO's for NNDR?

I would imagine everything must be fair, and this clearly is not.

[bluebottle]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

If a local authority is granted, say, 40 Liability Orders at one hearing and is only charged £40.00 court costs for that, then, in my considered judgement, the costs should be apportioned on a pro rata basis, in the example cited, £1.00 per defaulter. If, in the example, a local authority then attaches £40.00 costs to each defaulter's account, what case or statute law are they relying upon to get away with it?

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

error

posted on other thread

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

ERROR

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

THIS IS THE LATEST RESPONSE FROM THE COUNCIL TO MY LAST FOI REQUEST


DESCRIPTION OF INFORMATION REQUESTED

Dear Sir/Madam

Please supply details under the aforementioned Act and within the time constraints permitted in relation to the following:

1) You have previously stated that the cost to COUNCIL respective of Court costs for the period 1/4/2011 – 31/3/2012 for Council Tax was £22,482.00. You also state that there is a charge made by the Magistrates Court to COUNCIL in the amount of £3.00 per Liability Order application made and 3527 Liabilty Orders were granted for this period. Does COUNCIL incur a cost for ALL council tax liability order applications submitted to the Magistrates Court whether successful or not?( quote ‘ 7,510 sent for 5,179 accounts’) We have to pay per defendent at the time of making the complaint. Therefore, we pay whether we are sucessful or not.

2) You state that you had six liability hearing dates booked for the period 1/4/2011 – 31/3/2012. Whilst, by your admission that there is no charge made by the Court for the use of its rooms, COUNCIL, presumably will have incurred its own costs for attendance at the booked hearings. What is the total audited cost to COUNCIL for its attendance at court for the same period previously stated?

The costs will be in relation to officer time and this is covered under salaries – the only variable cost is mileage.

3) Do council tax liability hearings take place at the Magistrates court or at the local council offices? At the Magistrates' Court.

4) Are council tax summonses presented to a lawful magistrate and adjudged on an individual basis prior to them being stamped by a clerk to the justices? The complaint is given to the clerk of the justices to consider and is signed by them.

5) The council on its summons for non payment of council tax charges £40.00 per liability order which is payable by the ‘debtor’ under the heading of ‘court costs’. Whilst the council claims that it incurred its own court costs of £22,482.00 for the period 1/4/2011 – 31/03/2012, it will accrue a revenue of over £140,000 based on 3527 liability orders granted for the period in question. To where and how does this ‘surplus’ money get allocated within COUNCIL? As a government body, the council clearly has a responsibility for complete transparency of its finances and I require accurate information from you as to how this surplus is utilised.

For the period 2011/12 the corporate debt recovery team showd an income of £406,572.43. For the same period the corporate debt recovery team had the following costs: Employee costs £148,217.16
Premises costs £10,197.00
Transport costs £417.60
Supplies and services £11,981.81
Third party payments ( eg bailiffs fees, court costs) £46,618.85
Support Services £182,912.00
Capital Charges £3,179.48

Surplus of £3048.53

As the accounts have not been finialised yet, i can not comment on how this surplus of £3048.53 will be used as the figure may change.



DATE OF THIS REQUEST: 17th DAY OF May 2012

SIGNED:


INTERESTING RESPONSE IS IT NOT, I WILL WAIT FOR COMMENTS BEFORE ANOTHER FOI RESPONSE GETS FIRED OFF TO THEM AS THEY ARE STILL BEING EVASIVE

have you noticed they put their charges under corporate debt recovery team, so it is for all council debt recovery, not just council tax

yet the regulations state costs reasonable in applying for a liability order, not for the whole debt recovery team costs

[labman]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

Is it legal for a Clerk to the Justices to consider and sign off LO's without a Magistrate seeing them and considering them on a case by case basis?

[miliitant]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

this gets even better, by the councils own admission the revenue collected from court costs and admin costs in obtaning a liability order goes to fund the corporate debt recovery team. these are the departments within that team

THE COURTS ONLY RECEIVE £3.00 per liabilty order, (court costs) thats all, the rest goes to the council

council tax Business rates plus NNDR
Busisness improvement district levy NNDR
Council tenant rent
Former council tenant rents
Housing benefit overpayments
Recharchable repairs current and former tenants
Service charge for lease holders
Rent for temporary bed and breakfast accommodation
Sundary debts-council services

[outlawlgo]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

Good work! Keep going.

They are only permitted to impose penalties on the debtor for "a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the applicant in obtaining the order" .....(Regulation 34(7)(b) of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

Since when did council's employ bailiffs to deal with liability order applications.

As you say, they are including costs for all council debt recovery (and the rest) and quite happily letting those caught out with these fees pay for it.

Employee costs are included....

I wonder if they are employed exclusively for the purpose of preparing and producing summonses etc., or would they be performing other duties and be employed by the council in any event.

[ploddertom]

Re: council tax and council recovery charges

I find the reference to and the costs involved for "third party payments" to be interesting and maybe that should be explained in more detail. Obviously given the other details one could ask about the number of emloyees, what supplies & services, support services etc. Believe there is a lot of mileage in what they have said.