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council tax and council recovery charges

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  • #16
    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

    I presume you will have seen this.

    http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...2&d=1321094760

    Bernie

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

      Originally posted by miliitant View Post
      (1) The bailiff costs are for sundry debts that have been sent to Bristow & Sutor to collect. Bristow & Sutor act as collection agents for these debts, and we are charged a commission.

      SO BALIFF FIRMS CHARGE THE COUNCILS COMISSION PRIOR TO INFORMING THE DEBTOR AND IS RECOVERED THROUGH THE COUNCILS OWN ADDMIN FEES

      COMMENTS PEOPLE
      If the Lader White Paper is to be believed, the above claim may be not exactly truthful. Some councils get commission on debts sent to their contracted bailiffs.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

        AUSTIN MITCHELL (Great Grimsby, Labour)

        To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what guidance he has provided to (a) local authorities and (b) magistrates' courts on assessing costs reasonably incurred under the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992; whether local authorities are permitted to accrue revenue from such costs; and if he will make a statement.

        GRANT SHAPPS Minister of State (Housing and Local Government), Communities and Local Government; Welwyn Hatfield, Conservative)

        I have been asked to reply on behalf of the Department for Communities and Local Government.

        The Ministry of Justice and the Department for Communities and Local Government have issued no guidance to

        (a) local authorities and
        (b) magistrates courts on assessing costs reasonably incurred under the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.


        What is reasonable in a particular case is a matter for the magistrates court to determine following submissions by the billing authority.


        SO ITS THE LOCAL AUTHORITY WHO CALL THE SHOTS ON COURT COSTS AS WELL AS COUNCIL ADMIN COSTS


        I HAVE NOW DONE A SECOND FOI REQUEST ON THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE REQUESTING HOW MUCH THE COURT CHARGES TO HIRE OUT A ROOM TO HEAR THESE LIABILITY ORDER APPLICATIONS
        Last edited by miliitant; 12th February 2012, 22:11:PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

          error
          Last edited by miliitant; 23rd February 2012, 19:23:PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

            HMCTS Compliance and Investigations Branch
            2nd Floor Post Point 2-16
            102 Petty France
            London
            SW1H 9AJ

            DX 152380 Westminster 8
            T 020 3334 6725
            F
            E
            www.justice.gov.uk

            Public Sector/Local Authority/Charity Clients










            Mr xxxxx







            22 February 2012

            Our ref: FOI/
            Your ref:


            Dear



            Freedom of Information Request



            Thank you for your email of 10 February 2012, in which you asked for the following information from the Ministry of Justice (MoJ):


            What is the total cost that either HM court service, or the ministry of justice charge to third parties (local authorities) to requisition a magistrates court room for AN AGREED PERIOD (EITHER BY THE DAY OR BY THE HOUR) LOCAL AUTHORITIES IN REGARDS TO A Local Authority for the issue of a Liability Order respective of unpaid Council Tax? (Council Tax (administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992)”


            Your request has been handled under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

            I can confirm that the department holds information that you have asked for, and I am pleased to provide this to you.

            We do have charges for commercial hiring of HMCTS premises; however this is dependent on the purpose and length of the hire. We do have instances where the court or the office manager may consider waiving the fee but this will be dependant on the individual court and may include your example of Liability Orders for unpaid council tax.

            If applicable, the hire fee will also include the actual cost of providing security and VAT at 20%. The table below illustrates the standard rate of fees we charge for hiring, without security costs and VAT. If we hire out our facilities for meetings that are not court/proceedings related then the last hire tariff would apply in this instance.
            Last edited by miliitant; 24th February 2012, 20:09:PM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

              I haven't read all the posts yet so please aloow for that. I'm having a battle with LA about a CT issue. When they secured a liability order against me they applied for roughly 300 liability orders @ £85 each. Thats a total of approx £25,000 for an hour in court. Nice work if you can get it. As I've posted on another topic - 'Big stick approach'. And as usual it's those who can least afford it that get penalised. How did society become so unfair..

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                but the question is now

                are the say £45 court costs reasonable when charged to each debtor when it only costs the court charges is £300 max per sitting.

                match up £45 costs at say 2000 liability orders to be rubber stamped at the court sitting.

                cost to the council to hire out the court £300
                £45 court cost per liability order for each of the 2000 debtors at each sitting £90000

                even with the salary costs etc, this is not a fair representation of reasonable costs,

                next FOI request has allready gone in to the council asking exactly how much the court charges the council the total cost including salary to hire out a court room for a sitting

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                  Originally posted by miliitant View Post
                  AFTER A FOI ACT REQUEST ON THE LOCAL AUTHORITY REF FEES CHARGED THEY CAME BACK WITH THIS

                  The administrative charge is made up as follows: Salary - £176,873 Stationery costs - £634 Postage costs - £7,102 Car allowance (travel to and from court) - £249 IT equipment - £63 Mobile phone for use at court - £64 Computer software- £4735 Bailiffs fees £9046 Court Costs - £14,179. The process is an automated process. However, an officer has to run the process and check that it has ran successfully. Officers reply to correspondence/ enquiries relating to the issuing of summonses. They also have to manually monitor special arrangements that have been set up.



                  I THEN DEMANDED CLARIFICATION ON SUCH THINGS AS BALIFF CHARGES PRIOR THE DEBT GOING TO BALIFFS, THIS IS THE RESPONSE

                  Dear Mr XXXXX


                  Further to your email on XX January, please accept my apologies for the delay in providing our response, which is below.


                  (1) The bailiff costs are for sundry debts that have been sent to Bristow & Sutor to collect. Bristow & Sutor act as collection agents for these debts, and we are charged a commission.


                  (2) Neither the summons notice or the liability order make reference to administration costs. The costs that are requested at court and agreed by the magistrates. They take into account the total cost to the council of maintaining and managing debt owed to the council.

                  SO BALIFF FIRMS CHARGE THE COUNCILS COMMISSION PRIOR TO INFORMING THE DEBTOR AND IS RECOVERED THROUGH THE COUNCILS OWN ADMIN FEES

                  COMMENTS PEOPLE
                  Two observations here that suggest (at least) the £9,046 bailiff fees should not be included in the calculation for incurred recovery costs with respect to obtaining the liability order:

                  1. I'm not certain, but I believe council tax debts are not classed as sundry debts and these costs should be accounted for somewhere else in the system (not as the costs incurred for council tax recovery).

                  2. Even if sundry debts did include council tax debt, the costs "reasonably incurred" can only include those costs for obtaining the liability order. Instructing Bailiffs comes as a step subsequent to obtaining the liability order. [EDIT] As CleverClogs pointed out in post #5.

                  From the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992:

                  Application for liability order

                  34.–(6) The court shall make the order if it is satisfied that the sum has become payable by the defendant and has not been paid.

                  (7) An order made pursuant to paragraph (6) shall be made in respect of an amount equal to the aggregate of—
                  (a) the sum payable, and

                  (b) a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the applicant in obtaining the order.
                  Last edited by outlawlgo; 27th February 2012, 14:43:PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                    thanks for dropping into the debate outlawlgo

                    this thread is now starting to get answers on this council tax extorsion

                    so my question has to be

                    how do i find out if council tax debts are not classed as sundry debts and these costs should be accounted for somewhere else in the system (not as the costs incurred for council tax recovery).

                    i am after statute or case law to nail this

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                      If this helps, the following was asked of North East Lincolnshire council after it supplied figures for the supposed costs it incurs in relation to liability order applications.



                      Q4. With regards the above data. What does the following relate to:

                      Recharged income – (£121,800)*

                      Council's reply:

                      A4. This relates to the amount charged to other council departments for the collection of sundry/miscellaneous debts (not Council Tax or Business Rates).
                      Last edited by outlawlgo; 27th February 2012, 19:34:PM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                        Maybe all councils class Council Tax seperately to sundry debts.

                        Knowsley council make a point of this

                        What is a Sundry Debt?

                        If you owe the council money for a service other than council tax or non-domestic rates, this is called a sundry debt.

                        The Sundry Debtors Team collect a wide range of income on behalf of the council, including charges for building control fees, trade refuse collection, pest control, rechargeable works, commercial rents, sporting and community hall hire.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                          Originally posted by miliitant View Post
                          If applicable, the hire fee will also include the actual cost of providing security and VAT at 20%. The table below illustrates the standard rate of fees we charge for hiring, without security costs and VAT. If we hire out our facilities for meetings that are not court/proceedings related then the last hire tariff would apply in this instance.
                          Fascinating!

                          So it would only cost £300 to hire a court room as a venue for a private sex orgy?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                            THIS IS MY LATEST REPLY TO A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST


                            DESCRIPTION OF INFORMATION REQUESTED

                            Dear Sir/Madam

                            Please supply details under the aforementioned Act and within the time constraints permitted in relation to the following:

                            1) How many Council Tax Liability Applications were issued by XXXX XXXX Council for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012? 7,510 summonses were sent for 5,179 accounts.
                            2) How many (Council Tax) Liability Orders were granted by XXXXX Magistrates for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012? 3,527
                            3) How many Council Tax Liability hearings were heard at XXXXX Magistrates Court for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012? We had six liability order hearing dates booked. We do not keep a record of individual cases heard on these dates as we are not required to.
                            4) What was the total time in hours that XXXXX Magistrates Court time was booked for and used by THE COUNCIL for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012? Do not keep a record of how long we are at court as we are not required to by law. However, we arrive at the court an hour before the hearing time and are required to wait until we are called. Total time spent at court can be up to four hours on each hearing date.




                            COMMENTS PLEASE PEOPLE

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                              Based on the figures quoted, the council received a gross revenue of £141,080 which is £40 fee charged to debtor multiplied by the total orders issued 2011-2012.

                              If they are claiming 24hrs total court time, this equates to 24hrs x £60/hr which equals £ 1440:00

                              The council are charged at £3:00 per order issued so 3527 orders x £3 equals £10,581

                              So.........

                              141,080 minus £1440 equals £139,640

                              £139,640 minus £10,581 equals £129,059

                              Gets better doesn’t it?...........

                              Council now has £129,059 in its kitty minus its own costs for attending the hearings.

                              Stinks don’t it?



                              Application for liability order

                              34.–(6) The court shall make the order if it is satisfied that the sum has become payable by the defendant and has not been paid.

                              (7) An order made pursuant to paragraph (6) shall be made in respect of an amount equal to the aggregate of—
                              (a) the sum payable, and

                              (b) a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the applicant in obtaining the order.
                              Last edited by miliitant; 23rd April 2012, 19:44:PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                                AS THE COUNCIL HAS BEEN ECONOMIC WITH THE TRUTH, ANOTHER FOI REQUEST HAS JUST BEEN SENT



                                Dear xxxxxx council,

                                Thank you for your response in respect of FOI xxxx.

                                I am not satisfied by your response respective of points 3 & 4 in my request (xxxx) as I consider your comments to be ambiguous and evasive. As there is likely to be a charge raised by the MoJ against xxx council for the use of Court rooms for the hearing of Council Tax Liability Orders, I find it necessary to submit a further FOI request for your attention in which I have been more specific. Clearly, any charges incurred by zzzz council should be transparent and open for inspection by the general public.


                                Request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000



                                APPLICANT:


                                ADDRESS FOR CORRESPONDENCE:


                                DESCRIPTION OF INFORMATION REQUESTED

                                Dear Sir/Madam

                                Please supply details under the aforementioned Act and within the time constraints permitted in relation to the following:

                                1) Was there a charge made by xxxxx magistrates Court to xxxxxx Council respective of the room hire for the hearing and issuing of council tax liability orders for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012?

                                2) If yes, what was the charge made by xxxxxx Magistrates Court for the TOTAL TIME used by xxxxx Council for the hearing & issuing of Council Tax Liability Orders for the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04 2012?

                                3) How much is charged by xxxxxxxx Magistrates Court to xxxxx council for the issuing of Council Tax Liability Orders and what was the total cost incurred by xxxxx council for same during the period 1/04/2011 to 1/04/2012?


                                DATE OF THIS REQUEST: 23rd DAY OF APRIL 2012

                                SIGNED:


                                I WILL GET TO THE TRUTH, EVEN IF IT TAKES ME ISSUING 100 FOI REQUESTS

                                Comment

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