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council tax and council recovery charges

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  • council tax and council recovery charges

    first time poster so go easy with me

    i received a liability order from my local authority for £47.00. i did not realise i had underpaid as i pay my council tax by direct debit.

    what i objected to was the council put court costs of £40 and council fees of £55

    gaining valuable knowledge from the forum i proceeded to do a freedom of information request on the council over these fees,

    the reply is as follows;


    Dear Sir/Madam

    Please supply details under the aforementioned Act in relation to the following:

    Council Tax Liability Orders

    I make reference to, CouncilTax (Administration & Enforcement) Regulations (1992) Reg.24

    which ‘.....make allowance for costs reasonably incurred by the applicant in obtaining the Order.’ As an amount is not specified by the regulation and the term ‘reasonable costs’ is referred to, I require a complete and proper breakdown of:

    1) The actual administrative cost to xxxxxx District Council pursuant of Court proceedings against an alleged Council Tax debtor.

    The actual costs of producing a summons and liability order would be the same if only one was produced. The same actions have to be taken regardless of numbers produced. Therefore, I can not advise you of how the administrative costs relate to one debtor.


    2) By your own admission, it is an automated process with minimal manual intervention, exactly, how is the Administration charge made up? e.g. stationary cost, labour cost, postage cost or similar.



    The administrative charge is made up as follows: Salary - £176,873 Stationery costs - £634 Postage costs - £7,102 Car allowance (travel to and from court) - £249 IT equipment - £63 Mobile phone for use at court - £64 Computer software- £4735 Bailiffs fees £9046 Court Costs - £14,179. The process is an automated process. However, an officer has to run the process and check that it has ran successfully. Officers reply to correspondence/ enquiries relating to the issuing of summonses. They also have to manually monitor special arrangements that have been set up.


    THIS IS WHERE I NEED HELP

    under commom law, an organisation who levy a penalty has to give a detailed invoice on the said charge.

    so how can the council say so many thousend for this and that, i require a detailed break down of the £55 cost to the penny directed at myself

    i am going to fire off a response but i need to quote the legislation and where it is contained under common law

    thanks for looking in
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

    quick bump

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

      It is a good question, and I'll be fascinated to see the answer. I sincerely wish you good luck, as overcharging of these fees is one of my real bug bears, as is the overuse of the word 'reasonable' which can never be objective.

      Are you sure you need to resort to Common Law to fight this? Common Law is notoriously difficult to navigate and again remains subjective until tested in court.

      I'd be surprised if there wasn't some case law existing under statute about this.

      Keep us updated.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

        Originally posted by miliitant View Post
        what i objected to was the council put court costs of £40 and council fees of £55
        The magistrates court fee is £5 for the liability order.

        The council tax enforcement regulations do not provide for the council to charge you £55.

        Start the formal complaints procedure using this template letter:

        http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...87&postcount=7

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

          Originally posted by miliitant View Post
          The administrative charge is made up as follows: Salary - £176,873 Stationery costs - £634 Postage costs - £7,102 Car allowance (travel to and from court) - £249 IT equipment - £63 Mobile phone for use at court - £64 Computer software- £4735 Bailiffs fees £9046 Court Costs - £14,179. The process is an automated process. However, an officer has to run the process and check that it has ran successfully. Officers reply to correspondence/ enquiries relating to the issuing of summonses. They also have to manually monitor special arrangements that have been set up.
          The above is, of course, utter poppycock - and very smelly poppycock, too.

          According to the above misinformation, all council tax debtors pay for the cost of running the council tax collection department or, at least, the cost of that part of the department directly involved with chasing up debts.

          The charge for computer software is plainly wrong, as the programs used do not need to be renewed annually, nor are they rented.

          As this applies solely to obtaining liability orders, it should be immediately obvious that no bailiff fees should be applied as no bailiffs are involved at that stage.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

            It reminds me of a similar argument during the OFT/Banks case in 2009 - why should people who are in 'trouble' be used, via penalties, to subsidise the 'system.

            Surely the LAs cannot use the 'core terms of the contract' defence.
            CAVEAT LECTOR

            This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

            You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
            Cohen, Herb


            There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
            gets his brain a-going.
            Phelps, C. C.


            "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
            The last words of John Sedgwick

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

              many thanks

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                i have now sent a FOI act request on to the ministry of justice. this is to get confirmation on what fees the court charges on obtaning liability orders

                ill update the reply when i have it

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                  WITH REFERENCE TO MY

                  freedom of Information requests made to my local authoritie asking them to itemise and justify the "costs reasonably incurred by the applicant in obtaining the order", they can't do it and just use the "Loophole Act 1991 as amended" to avoid providing a proper answer.


                  MAY I ASK WHAT IS THIS LOOPHOLE ACT 1991 IS ABOUT

                  not come across that term before

                  many thanks
                  Last edited by miliitant; 5th February 2012, 10:33:AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                    I HAVE HAD A REPLY TO MY FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST ON THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE

                    ill scan and post up the reply when i get in from work but what i can tell you is


                    the courts charge the local authority £3.00

                    THATS THREE POUNDS for each liability order

                    so how the hell can the council charge £40 court costs along with the councils own £55 admin costs

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                      Originally posted by miliitant View Post
                      I HAVE HAD A REPLY TO MY FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST ON THE MINISTRY OF JUSTICE

                      ill scan and post up the reply when i get in from work but what i can tell you is


                      the courts charge the local authority £3.00

                      THATS THREE POUNDS for each liability order

                      so how the hell can the council charge £40 court costs along with the councils own £55 admin costs
                      Hi militant,

                      I recently went to one of these kangar.........er, Liability Hearings with a neighbour.

                      I asked the gentleman who was outside the courtroom (a council official, of course) about the 'mechanics' of the proceedings.
                      I was informed that the court had been booked for the afternoon only, & that over 2000 LO's were being processed (ie, rubberstamped).

                      Not a bad afternoon's work for the Local Authority.

                      & not a bad little earner for the court, either.
                      CAVEAT LECTOR

                      This is only my opinion - "Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

                      You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
                      Cohen, Herb


                      There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
                      gets his brain a-going.
                      Phelps, C. C.


                      "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
                      The last words of John Sedgwick

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                        seems another FOI is in order on the MOJ again

                        this time i will ask how much it costs to hire out a court room for the afternoon on behalf of a third party

                        IE

                        LOCAL AUTHORITY OR
                        DVLA

                        THE DVLA FINES FOR FAILING TO SURENDER THE V5 TO THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS £175 WITH £15 COSTS SO HOW CAN DVLA ASK FOR £15 AND THE COUNCIL £40 IN COURT COSTS

                        thats just court fees, not the extra dvla or the council put on as reasonable extra costs

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                          HMCTS Compliance and Investigations Branch
                          2nd Floor Post Point 2-16
                          102 Petty France
                          London
                          SW1H 9AJ

                          DX 152380 Westminster 8
                          T 020 3334 6725
                          F
                          E
                          Justice


                          Mr xxxxxxx

                          Xxxxxxx 2012

                          Our ref: FOI/
                          Your ref:

                          Dear Mr

                          Freedom of Information Request


                          Thank you for your email xxxxxxx 2012, in which you asked for the following information from the Ministry of Justice (MoJ):

                          For the period April 2011 – April 2012, what is the fee charged by the Magistrates Court to a Local Authority for the issue of a Liability Order respective of unpaid Council Tax? (Council Tax (administration & Enforcement) Regulations 1992)
                          Your request has been handled under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

                          I can confirm that the department holds information that you have asked for, and I am pleased to provide this to you.

                          For the period April 2011 to April 2012 - A £3.00 fee charge has been payable when Local Authorities make an application for a liability order for proceedings under either:

                          · the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 or
                          · for Non- Domestic Rating (Collection and Enforcement) (Local Lists) Regulations 1989.
                          The fee charge is number 4 in the Magistrates' Courts Fees (Amendment No. 2) Order 2010 Statutory Instrument Order Number 1917(L.11). The Fees Order can be found on the Legislation.gov.uk website. The webpage link is: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/


                          You can also find more information by reading the full text of the Act (available at http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/contents) and further guidance http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/freedom-of-information.htm.


                          You have the right to appeal our decision if you think it is incorrect. Details can be found in the ‘How to Appeal’ section attached at the end of this letter.


                          Yours sincerely
                          HMCTS Compliance and Investigations Branch











                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                            AFTER A FOI ACT REQUEST ON THE LOCAL AUTHORITY REF FEES CHARGED THEY CAME BACK WITH THIS

                            The administrative charge is made up as follows: Salary - £176,873 Stationery costs - £634 Postage costs - £7,102 Car allowance (travel to and from court) - £249 IT equipment - £63 Mobile phone for use at court - £64 Computer software- £4735 Bailiffs fees £9046 Court Costs - £14,179. The process is an automated process. However, an officer has to run the process and check that it has ran successfully. Officers reply to correspondence/ enquiries relating to the issuing of summonses. They also have to manually monitor special arrangements that have been set up.



                            I THEN DEMANDED CLARIFICATION ON SUCH THINGS AS BALIFF CHARGES PRIOR THE DEBT GOING TO BALIFFS, THIS IS THE RESPONSE

                            Dear Mr XXXXX


                            Further to your email on XX January, please accept my apologies for the delay in providing our response, which is below.


                            (1) The bailiff costs are for sundry debts that have been sent to Bristow & Sutor to collect. Bristow & Sutor act as collection agents for these debts, and we are charged a commission.


                            (2) Neither the summons notice or the liability order make reference to administration costs. The costs that are requested at court and agreed by the magistrates. They take into account the total cost to the council of maintaining and managing debt owed to the council.

                            SO BALIFF FIRMS CHARGE THE COUNCILS COMMISSION PRIOR TO INFORMING THE DEBTOR AND IS RECOVERED THROUGH THE COUNCILS OWN ADMIN FEES

                            COMMENTS PEOPLE
                            Last edited by miliitant; 12th February 2012, 22:08:PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: council tax and council recovery charges

                              Unfair ----- Yes

                              Surprised --No

                              Lawful ----- ???????? Probably unfortunately.


                              If enough people knew about this injustice, and this is just one of thousands of similar ones enacted against the general public every day, there would be a riot.

                              I think most people know it's going on, but when it's presented to you on a plate as you have done, it somehow seems harsher.

                              Should have said well done for ferreting it out. I admire your tenacity.
                              Last edited by labman; 12th February 2012, 14:51:PM.

                              Comment

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