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Thread: JBW Group bailiff problems

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    Default JBW Group bailiff problems

    Hi All,

    I came across this forum the other day whilst searching online about the JBW Group and found it incredibly comforting that I am not the only one that is having problems with these thieves.

    First, some background information:
    Me and my girlfriend live in a building full of flats. It's got gated underground parking for residents who live in the building. On Friday the 16th December (last friday), my girlfriend wanted to take our car to do some food shopping, but to her horror found our car had been clamped. She ran back upstairs to me and explained the situation at which point I picked up the phone and called the bailiffs phone number which was displayed on a piece of paper that was stuck to our drivers window. Please see here for image:

    http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/01.JPG

    The first thing I found strange about this is that they require you to call an 07 (mobile) number, but I did and got through to a guy who I could barely understand. He explained to me that the car had been clamped due to us not paying a congestion charge penalty, which to be honest, I may have forgotten to do. He also explained that he wanted £580 to release the car. We told him we would call him back while we discussed the situation with each other and at this point I found the Legal Beagles forum which seems to have a lot of information about people who are / have been in similar situations to us. Anyway, the story continues.

    We called him back and asked a few simple questions. First, how did you manage to clamp our car in a residential gated underground car park. His reply: "Ahh ehhm.. we spotted your car using our ANPR camera", which if you have been reading this you know is a lie. There is no way his ANPR camera could have spotted my car in an underground car park. Even if you park in the most accessible area of our underground car park you wouldn't be able to spot it using ANPR. His reply: "Ahhh ehmm... you need to pay now or i'll come and remove your car". Unfortunately, I lost my temper at this point and told him to go shove it and if he comes near my car I will sit inside it as long as I have to. He then threatened to call the police if I did such a thing.

    Here is a picture of the clamp: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/02.JPG

    Couple of questions if I may:

    1) Are bailiffs really allowed to come into a gated residential underground car park and clamp my car?
    2) If I would have sat in the car, do you think he would have called the police? This is a question which has been haunting me ever since this incident happened.

    He did threaten me with additional costs if he had to call the tow-truck etc, but a part of me thought he was bluffing. Anyway, I wasn't quite ready to find out a few days before Christmas, so we paid him the £580, splitting the payment between my girfriends debit card and mine. What a Friday night ey? Merry Christmas!

    We tried to take pictures of as many things as we could, and one of the things that really caught my attention was his ID (which I asked for before we paid him). Take a look at it here: EDITED for Confidentiality

    I used to work as a web designer and when looking at this piece of ID it seems to be that it's home made? If you pay attention to the edges and sides of the ID you will see that it's not straight and just looks really shabby. But then I saw the stamp from Watford County Court and thought to myself, this then has to be real? Would bailiffs be stupid enough to fake something like this? Because surely, if they were caught, they would be in serious trouble?

    Finally, after we had paid, he took the clamp off, but left the sticker on our window. I asked him politely to take it off as he put it there in the first place to which he responded: "NO". We then tried to peel it off see here: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/04.JPG

    but ended up having to get a bucket of hot water from our flat to get it off:http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/05.JPG

    Can I get these plonkers for damage to my car somehow? Surely they put the sticker on there, they should take it off?

    Our current state of mind:
    We are completely willing to pay the original TFL charges (£178 or something I believe), but find it absolutely outrageous that we have been stepped on in our own homes like this by bailiffs. So the ultimate question remains: Do we stand any chance of getting our bailiff charges back if we take them to court?

    I hope to hear from you ladies and gents.

    Kindest Regards,
    Fredrik Christensen
    Last edited by Celestine; 18th December 2011 at 21:26:PM. Reason: confidentiality

  2. #2
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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    The first thing you need to do is phone the Ministry of Justice as this bailiff is showing on the online register as working for Newlyns not JBW Bailiffs. Their number is 020 3334 3536. The dates are exactly the same as those on this ID badge.

    If it turns out he is being employed by / working for JBW without having told the MOJ, then he stands to lose his £10000 bond and JBW could be in big trouble.

    Needless to say it would also strengthen your case as the levy would be invalid and you would, in my opinion, be entitled to a total refund.

    Make sure you pursue this to the hilt!

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    May I suggest you edit your post to remove the reference to JPG 03 as it contains personal details of the Bailiff.
    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
    1) Are bailiffs really allowed to come into a gated residential underground car park and clamp my car? Yes - the chances are someone has let him in
    2) If I would have sat in the car, do you think he would have called the police? This is a question which has been haunting me ever since this incident happened. If the Police had been called you may well have been arrested


    Last edited by ploddertom; 18th December 2011 at 21:17:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Hi Labman,

    Many thanks for your reply and your advice. I will do that first thing tomorrow morning and update you on the situation.

    Kind regards,
    Fred
    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
    Hi Ploddertom,

    Thanks for your advice and it seems the post has already been edited.

    Kind regards,
    Fred
    Last edited by fchristensen; 18th December 2011 at 21:30:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Going back to original ticket, you say you may have forgotten to pay it did you ask for the date of the contravention? I believe also that TfL would have sent reminders prior to employing the Bailiff - did you receive any of these? Have you moved since the transgression took place?

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    The date of the contravention was: Wed, 06 Jul 2011 08:42:53

    I can confirm that I never received any correspondance concerning regarding this and I have not moved either.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    I'm not too well up on these but you need to speak to either TfL or the Traffic Enforcement Centre and find out what address they have sent everything to. If they have used a wrong address then there may be a chance it can be overturned and set back to the original fine. In the meantime do as Labman has said and check to make sure his employer has changed. Did you also get a breakdown of the fees you were charged?

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    I will call the Traffic Enforcement Centre tomorrow after I have spoken to the MOJ as Labman suggested.

    Thanks
    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Update: I called the MOJ and came through to the most incompetent operator I have ever dealt with. I tried to explain the situation to her, but she ended up giving me an email address to write to. So that's what i'm going to do now.

    I'll keep you updated.

    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Yet another update: MOJ just called me back to take down the details of the Bailiff. He was very cooperative unlike the operator and told me they'd get back to me tomorrow with their information.

    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Ok, I just got off the phone with the MOJ who told me that it appears the bailiff that showed up on our door is still showing as working for Newlyn PLC as it does online. I thanked the man and hung up.

    I want to play this right the first time around, what do you suggest I do now? I did get a couple of phone numbers off the MOJ for the Enforcement Association: 08703007255 08448933922. I haven't called them yet as I wanted to check with you lovely folks here first.

    Thanks for all the help so far and any suggestions on what I should do next Is greatly appreciated.

    Kind regards,
    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    I'm sorry to keep spamming this post, but feel that it's important you get all the information. Here are page 1 and 2 of the cost breakdown that I requested from JBW group.

    1: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/breakdown_p1.png
    2: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/breakdown_p2.png

    Kindest,
    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by fchristensen View Post
    Ok, I just got off the phone with the MOJ who told me that it appears the bailiff that showed up on our door is still showing as working for Newlyn PLC as it does online. I thanked the man and hung up.
    Then he seems to have been a bit naughty.

    I want to play this right the first time around, what do you suggest I do now? I did get a couple of phone numbers off the MOJ for the Enforcement Association: 08703007255 08448933922. I haven't called them yet as I wanted to check with you lovely folks here first.
    Would you call the Police Federation if a flatfoot had beaten you up, or the Millwall Supporters' Club if you'd had an altercation with one of their oafs?

    Then why suppose that calling an outfit set up by and for bailiff companies would be at all sympathetic to your concerns?

    Thanks for all the help so far and any suggestions on what I should do next Is greatly appreciated.
    You should SAR the oafs at JBW for all your details, including charges levied and a copy of the warrant.

    As for the damage to your motor-car, did he cause any scratches on the glass contrary to section 1 (link) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971? Even affixing the notice as he did might be such an offence.
    Last edited by CleverClogs; 20th December 2011 at 16:00:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost demerged
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

    For FREE legal representation, go to the National Probono Centre

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by fchristensen View Post
    I'm sorry to keep spamming this post, but feel that it's important you get all the information. Here are page 1 and 2 of the cost breakdown that I requested from JBW group.

    1: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/breakdown_p1.png
    2: http://69.175.39.234/~marsligh/images/breakdown_p2.png
    The name of Mr Gumby, the alleged bailiff, is visible on the second image but, on looking on the bailiff register, I note that he has not deigned to state his correct name.

    Without stating the actual name of that alleged 'gent', his full surname would be 'Gumbyingh'.

    His employer is indeed given as Newlyns.

    Unless you had altered or truncated his name, both seem to be evidence of deliberate deceit.
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

    For FREE legal representation, go to the National Probono Centre

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Thanks for your reply CleverClogs,

    I have removed his name from the second image.

    Forgive me for asking stupid questions, but what is a SAR and how would it benefit me? As for the fact that JBW hasn't told the MOJ that Mr.Grusome is working for them. Do I have any leverage here?

    There was no damage to the glass as far as I can tell, however I feel that he should have removed it, since he put it there.

    Kind regards,
    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by fchristensen View Post
    I have removed his name from the second image.
    Thank you. I saved the original version and used the data therein to look in the Bailiff Register; you will doubtless have noted that the name given on the warrant does not quite match that on the Register. Has Mr Gruesomingh changed his name?

    Forgive me for asking stupid questions, but what is a SAR and how would it benefit me?
    It is a Subject Access Request, made under section 7 (link) of the Data Protection Act 1998 and it doesn't really apply in your case, as Mr Gruesome (or Gruesomingh) left you a schedule of the charges made and the fibs he made on which they were based.

    He claimed to have visited on 07/12/2011 and, for that visit, he charged you £57 + VAT. On 16/12.2011, he charged not only for "attendance to remove" but also a "levy fee" - £175 and £60 + VAT respectively. As he plainly could not do both at the same time, the charge for "attendance to remove" was improperly made and this may be fraud - though you'll have one hell of a job getting any plod to act on it.

    You might have a case for getting the monies charged back by the bank(s).

    As for the fact that JBW hasn't told the MOJ that Mr.Grusome is working for them. Do I have any leverage here?
    Yes and no; it is up to Mr Gruesome/Gruesomingh/Whatever-his-name-is-this-week to tell the MOJ, as his change of name and change of employer both make his certificate invalid.

    There was no damage to the glass as far as I can tell, however I feel that he should have removed it, since he put it there.
    I agree.

    Even affixing a notice that can easily be removed has been held to be criminal damage - if one can get the plods to act on it.
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

    For FREE legal representation, go to the National Probono Centre

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Thanks CleverClogs,

    He said he made a visit while we were on holiday in Germany. Obviously our (heavy wood 7 point lock) door was locked at the time and there is no way he could have gained entry. Based on that and what you have told me, he was not within his rights to charge his levy and / or attendance to remove.

    I'm a bit stuck in terms of what I should do next. I suppose I should send JBW the evidence of his ID (last name wrong), incorrect charges and picture of the note being washed away from my car and see what they have to say. However, based on most people's dealings with these thugs i'm unlikely to get a reply.

    One thing is certain, I'm not going to give up and I WILL get my money back one way or another.

    Any further advice is greatly appreciated and thanks again.

    Kind regards,
    Fred

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Thank you for the picture of Mr Gormless Gruesome/Gruesomingh - he does rather look like one might expect, right to the way there's a little ridge of hair on the top of his head which suggests a defect when he was moulded.

    The address on his certificate is indeed that used by Newlyns.
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

    For FREE legal representation, go to the National Probono Centre

  19. #19
    labman's Avatar
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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Excellent news.

    You can now do a few things:

    1. Complain to JBW that they are using illegal, uncertficated bailiffs.

    Start by sending a SAR:

    Bailiff - SAR - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

    This will give you the written evidence you need to substantiate your complaint. They have 40 days in which to respond. This is 40 calendar days, so the fact that there are several Bank Holidays coming up makes no difference whatsoever to the 40 day deadline.

    Then follow the company's own Complaints Procedure. Seek compensation for the distress caused by this illegal levy and state that you will pursue the matter either through the certificating County Court or through the Magistrates' Court should they not address your complaint satisfactorily.

    This route should normally be exhausted before making a Form 4 complaint, which is only used if the internal process does not give you a satisfactory resolution.

    2. Once you receive all the written evidence back from the SAR, simultaneously complain to the people who appointed the bailiffs (presumably TfL) that JBW are using uncertificated bailiffs (see final paragraph). Enclose copies of the information from the SAR and your own evidence. State that this makes the levy invalid as it was carried out by an illegal bailiff. Seek compensation for the distress caused by this illegal levy and state that you will pursue the matter either through the certificating County Court or through the Magistrates' Court should they not address your complaint satisfactorily.


    3. Only to be used if the above do not give a satisfactory resolution. Complete a Form 4 Complaint sending copies of all supporting evidence to the court where this bailiff was originally certificated.

    Form 4 can be found at bottom of this thread:

    Bailiff Guide - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

    The court must then send written details to the bailiff who must reply in writing within 14 days. A hearing will then be arranged before a Circuit Judge. You can apply to have this moved to your local county court. After the hearing, if the complaint is upheld the Judge may cancel the certificate and/or may order that the £10000 security bond be forfeited either wholly or partly to compensate you, to cover any costs and expenses you may have incurred and also to cover the court costs, expenses and fees.

    The losing party will normally be found liable for the other side's legal costs, which can be thousands of pounds. Due to overuse this has often been the person making the complaint so a Form 4 should only be used in cases of grave abuse by a bailiff.

    Also, if you choose to follow this route, you are strongly advised to examine the papers received from the court - if a hearing is immediately arranged before the bailiff has even responded to the complaint, you'll need to contact the court office to point out that this is not what the Distress for Rent Rules 1988 say, and if needs be complain to the Court Manager.

    In the meantime, it would be a good idea to write to the body who appointed the bailiffs outlining what is going to happen - you are awaiting the results of a SAR and will be submitting a formal complaint having discovered from the Ministry of Justice that they have appointed an uncertificated bailiff and are vicariously liable with JBW for this. In the meantime you suggest that all action be suspended pending the outcome of your complaint.
    Last edited by labman; 20th December 2011 at 17:34:PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Hi Labman,

    First of all, I would like to thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed message. I honestly don't know what I would have done without the guidance that I have been given by every contributor on this forum. This gives me hope and I now feel obliged to see this through to the end, hopefully that will go a little way to saying thanks for all the help you have given me. Once this episode is finished, I will definitely stick around to try and help other members who are dealing with the same problems.

    Now, let me see if I have understood correctly:

    1. Send a SAR to JBW and wait up to 40 days for a reply. While waiting, compile evidence and a formal complaint letter and send this to them using their complaints method.

    Question: Do I threaten with legal action at this point?

    2. Once I have received the information requested from my SAR, also complain to TFL using the same method as above (depending on question 1).

    3. If all else fails, consider filling out a Form 4.

    I know I have considerably shortened your post, but will go through it meticulously while creating my complaint letter to make sure I have included every possible angle.

    Do you mind if I post my complaint letter here before sending? I'm not that good at writing formal letters (no experience).

    Again, I can't thank you enough.

    Kind regards,
    Fred

  21. #21
    labman's Avatar
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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Yes - it is almost impossible to find out exactly how to complain about an uncertificated bailiff, so I've done my best to put together what I believe to be the right route - collect evidence, complain with a vengeance!

    I forgot to mention you can also complain to JBW's professional associations. They are members of ACEA:

    Contact

    and

    CIVEA - Civil Enforcement Association

    In both cases click on the Complaints tab and follow instructions.

    No problems with you posting up your letter once you get to that stage.

    Don't forget to contact the body who instructed the bailiffs suggesting they cease all enforcement immediately pending the outcome of the complaint.

    Also do not threaten legal action unless you're willing to carry out the threat and if necessary lose!
    Last edited by labman; 20th December 2011 at 18:41:PM. Reason: Add last sentence

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Sorry had a very busy day yesterday. To find out about the Certificate he holds you now need to ring the Court he was Certificated at and ask them which employer he worked under on the date he says he visited, You should also ask if he has had a change of employer and the date that took effect.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by ploddertom View Post
    Sorry had a very busy day yesterday. To find out about the Certificate he holds you now need to ring the Court he was Certificated at and ask them which employer he worked under on the date he says he visited, You should also ask if he has had a change of employer and the date that took effect.
    Sorry PT - me on my learning curve again! I thought any changes had to be notified immediately to the MoJ, so if the MoJ still have the bailiff as working for Newlyns, I would have thought that was conclusive evidence.

    How long does it take the certificating court to notify the MoJ?

    Thanks!

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by ploddertom View Post
    Sorry had a very busy day yesterday. To find out about the Certificate he holds you now need to ring the Court he was Certificated at and ask them which employer he worked under on the date he says he visited, You should also ask if he has had a change of employer and the date that took effect.
    Never mind his change of employer - what about his apparent change of name?
    I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be a lawyer.

    For sensible legal advice http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/choosingandusing/findasolicitor.law

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    Default Re: JBW Group bailiff problems

    Quote Originally Posted by labman View Post
    Sorry PT - me on my learning curve again! I thought any changes had to be notified immediately to the MoJ, so if the MoJ still have the bailiff as working for Newlyns, I would have thought that was conclusive evidence.

    How long does it take the certificating court to notify the MoJ?

    Thanks!
    It's a multi stage process finding out all the info you need:
    A view of the actual certificate he holds - in this case iut revealed a diffing company
    A search of the MOJ online register - which we know is not always 100% accurate
    A phone call to the MOJ team asking for said info - which in this case has resulted in the same info being released
    A call to the Certificating Court asking when any change may have taken place - can;t remember exactly when info from the Court is forwarded - may only be quarterly - will try and look it up later.

    Not often does one have to ring the actual Court particularly from memory when the current Certificate is so recent!

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