Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

[Amethyst]

Many companies only appear to have stored the front page of agreements (where the signatures are) and not the reverse (which makes sense record wise as the back is a standard print for that particular product and the fronts where all the personal unique info is)

So under a CCA request they respond with a photostat copy of the front page and a reconstructed set of terms.

Some appear to be sending the reconstruct of the full terms (ie those which would have been in a seperate leaflet/booklet).

We know from those we have actually seen the reverse of the agreements that the terms on there are a selection of terms from the full terms - ie. the terms with the prescribed terms in (interest rates/default charges/payment methods etc) so on the reverse they write something like ' These are paragraphs 3,4 and 10 from the full terms and conditions' and print those conditions in full.

Do they need to do a seperate reconstruction of the reverse of the agreement (ie not just the full terms but a seperate sheet showing exactly what was on the reverse) to satisfy a) the CCA request and b) a court

also, for court is a statement of truth stating which of the terms were printed on the back going to be enough.

[leclerc]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

Many companies only appear to have stored the front page of agreements (where the signatures are) and not the reverse (which makes sense record wise as the back is a standard print for that particular product and the fronts where all the personal unique info is)

So under a CCA request they respond with a photostat copy of the front page and a reconstructed set of terms.

Some appear to be sending the reconstruct of the full terms (ie those which would have been in a seperate leaflet/booklet).

We know from those we have actually seen the reverse of the agreements that the terms on there are a selection of terms from the full terms - ie. the terms with the prescribed terms in (interest rates/default charges/payment methods etc) so on the reverse they write something like ' These are paragraphs 3,4 and 10 from the full terms and conditions' and print those conditions in full.

Do they need to do a seperate reconstruction of the reverse of the agreement (ie not just the full terms but a seperate sheet showing exactly what was on the reverse) to satisfy a) the CCA request and b) a court

also, for court is a statement of truth stating which of the terms were printed on the back going to be enough.

Why would they be reconstructed(especially the terms and conditions)? Most financial institutions have archives which would hold at least one set of historic terms and conditions....

[Amethyst]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

lol yes, but they have to be the ones printed on the back of that exact agreement - so they type them out from the 1 historic set instead.

[leclerc]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

lol yes, but they have to be the ones printed on the back of that exact agreement - so they type them out from the 1 historic set instead.

Most would be generic so there would be a number on the bottom of the front page, ie NWB1206(there is probably a form with that number as well, lol!) and a date, ie June 1998 which would be the date it was last updated......simples! right?

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

I am struggling to try and understand why they do this anyway with the amount of storage space available to the financial industry it is not a hard job surely for them to save the original agreement with all the T&C's indeed i have always and still do believe this is very sloppy of them and has caused a mountain of needless court cases

[DuckyFuzz]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

It all seems far too convenient for the creditor... pfft

What happens if they provide a copy of the T&C's which weren't the original T&C's on the back of the agreement?

In my case the T&C's provided by creditor via the solicitors included cancellation rights, which were missing from the signature and customer copy of the agreement.

:nono:

[pt2537]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

I wouldnt normally mention this on an open forum, but there is an argument over incorporation of terms into the contract.

Merely producing terms is not enough to get them home if you argue correctly


there is also case law t hat you can rely on in respect of incorporation of terms

[Ihaterbs]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

I wouldnt normally mention this on an open forum, but there is an argument over incorporation of terms into the contract.

Merely producing terms is not enough to get them home if you argue correctly


there is also case law t hat you can rely on in respect of incorporation of terms

Are you able to share this or elaborate?

[mystery1]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

Are you able to share this or elaborate?

Incorporation of terms in English law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

M1

[pt2537]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

The question arises whether the printed standard form conditions on the reverse became terms of the contract. This question of reasonable sufficiency of notice has often been considered by the courts. See Chitty 12-008 - 12-015. Where terms and conditions are on the reverse but there is no adequate notice of that fact on the front then the courts have consistently said that the terms are not incorporated. See the 3 cases cited at para.5(b)(iii) p26 and the Chitty extract.
It is true, however, that in a signed document, there can be incorporation of terms 'by reference' and in this regard the Claimant relies on the declaration that the terms had been received (para.5.2 p36). This does not get round the problem, however, as the rules on incorporation by reference require information as to where those terms are to be found - see e.g. Common Law Series: The Law of Contract 3.17:
"However, the more commonly arising situation is where that other party has no knowledge of the content of the terms and may not even be aware of their existence. Where there is no knowledge of the content or existence of the terms, the basic test for their incorporation is whether the proferens provided 'reasonably sufficient' notice of the terms3. This generally need only relate to their existence and the proferens intent to use them as terms of the contract. This means that when notice is provided the terms themselves need not normally be included, but merely a reference to them and the place where they may be found4

4 Thompson v London, Midland and Scottish Rly Co [1930] 1 KB 41; Smith v South Wales Switchgear Ltd [1978] 1 WLR 165; Circle Freight Ltd International Ltd v Medeast Gulf Exports Ltd [1988] 2 Lloyd's Rep 427; Poseidon v Davies Turner [1996] 2 Lloyd's Rep 388 at 392–3.

[Ihaterbs]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

Imo this argument is a non starter. If the terms were overleaf and the customer was made aware of this before signature then the terms are binding.

[pt2537]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

lol

Well the district judge accepted it, and we succeed with the case at trial on 29th October 2010

But it is not just a case of saying i agree to be abound by the terms, that is not enough to be incorporated.

As i say, each case turns on its own facts, you cannot have one size fits all in law


the authorities are also provided there too,

[Amethyst]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

Has to say something lik I agree to be bound by the terms overleaf /below/ in the attached/enclosed leaflet etc type thing - ie say you have read and where they are, not just say you have read with no indication where they are so if you havent read at that point you are able to do so ..... that what you mean pt ?

[middenmess]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

Has to say something lik I agree to be bound by the terms overleaf /below/ in the attached/enclosed leaflet etc type thing - ie say you have read and where they are, not just say you have read with no indication where they are so if you havent read at that point you are able to do so ..... that what you mean pt ?

Do you write copy for the Plain English Campaign? :santa_smiley:

[Ihaterbs]

Re: Terms printed on the reverse of the Agreement

lol

Well the district judge accepted it, and we succeed with the case at trial on 29th October 2010

But it is not just a case of saying i agree to be abound by the terms, that is not enough to be incorporated.

As i say, each case turns on its own facts, you cannot have one size fits all in law


the authorities are also provided there too,

The coa in ausie land held that an application for credit witch refered to terms overleaf was binding