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Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

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  • Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

    Hello,
    I'm new here (fantastic site!) and just looking for a bit of advice on a certain problem I'm having.
    What ever you can offer I will appreciate it greatly as i'd really like to arm myself with information before I take any further action.
    I'll try to provide as much information as I can but if there is anything you want to know that you feel is relevant then please let me know.

    I have worked since I left school but I left my job after my maternity leave finished and then my partner lost his job to redundancy so naturally I decided to return.
    So far I have been unsuccessful, and have been unemployed for 16 months now, as I only have GCSE's I thought i'd have more chance if I returned to study.

    Rather than go for any course I thought best to study something I enjoy that will allow me the opportunity to have the kind of career I have always wanted.
    If i'm going to do it I may as well do it right.
    I'd just missed the cut off for the full-time courses so I waited, bought a sewing machine and began to improve my skills and build a portfolio.
    Now the new college year is approaching I have applied to do BTEC in Fashion and Clothing (after this I want to go on to do teaching so I can teach the subject - to do this you need to have relevant qualifications in the chosen subject).

    I recieved a call from someone at the college telling me they wouldn't get the funding as i'm over 19 so I should look into other options.
    I explained that i'd looked into the possible pathways and this was the most feasible option for me and what I want to do.
    They haven't even bothered to view my portfolio - or interview me.
    I got the feeling that it was all down to my age.
    Disheartened but undeterred I came away trying to find alternative options that would allow me to do the course.
    As I'm not working it's not possible to pay the course fee's out of my own pocket so I searched out a career advice line (on the direct gov website).
    They found the situation a little odd and told me about something called Fee Remission where the college allows people in certain categories to study for free (including unemployed and low wage earners) and they are refunded the cost via the Learning Skills council.
    They also told me there is a government scheme to allow people to study their first level 3 course for free.
    They gave me websites to seek funding from independent charities and so I also looked into that and applied for several.
    Today I called the college again and spoke to someone from student services to ask how much the course costs .
    She told me that the college isn't accepting anyone over the age of 19 on their Creative media and Arts courses.
    She kept going on about funding and I said but what if I was to find external funding and she still said that I wouldn't be allowed to do it because they had a high number of applications for 16-19 year olds and preference is given to them.
    I did ask why preference would be given to them - especially considering they haven't yet recieved their GCSE results, but she simply said it was because their places are government funded.
    I would think that places should be allocated on a first come first served basis.
    I find it odd that the college are discriminating against people over the age of 19 especially when their website states they maintain outstanding equality of opportunity, and their code of conduct says they eliminate barriers in terms of gender age etc...
    She told me I would do better to look into studying at another college but the others are a fair distance and the nearest one that runs the course I want to do is too far to travel.

    Does anyone one have any knowledge of the laws etc regarding this matter, and please can you give me some advice on what steps I can take because I still want to do this course and i'm willing to fight it all the way.

    I don't mind if it is necessary, kicking up a stink!
    Thanks,
    Mama Doo.



    EDIT
    Just wanted to add something I have found here is this relevant and does anyone know if this is still applicable?
    The Age Regulations

    Regulations 20and 23 contain the law most relevant to further education colleges in terms of their relationships with students, their admission and guidance policies and planning of their course offer.This Quality Information Pack will focus on these Regulations.

    Regulation 20concerns the provision of vocational training and states:
    “It is unlawful, in relation to a person seeking or undergoing training, for any training provider to discriminate against him –
    a) in the arrangement he makes for the purpose of determining to whom he should offer training;
    b) in the terms on which the training provider affords him access to any training;
    c) by refusing or deliberately not affording him such access;
    d) by terminating his training; or
    e) by subjecting him to any other detriment during his training”

    A “training provider” is defined as “any person who provides, or makes arrangements for the provision of, training.”

    It is important to note that Regulation 20 does not apply where Regulation 23 applies.

    Regulation 23 states that it is unlawful for an FE college to discriminate against a person:

    “(a) in the terms on which it offers to admit him to the establishment as a student;
    (b)by refusing or deliberately not accepting an application for his admission to the establishment as a student; or
    (c)where he is a student of the establishment—
    (i) in the way it affords him access to any benefits,
    (ii)by refusing or deliberately not affording him access to them, or
    (iii)by excluding him from the establishment or subjecting him to any other detriment.

    Thus the relationship between a college or provider of training and its students and potential students is caught by the Age Regulations.Regulation 24 covers past students. The activities caught by the Age Regulations will include the information that is provided by prospectuses and course leaflets, the information, advice and guidance which offer places to students and the offering of places on courses which may in some colleges have previously been directed at certain age groups.

    Under the Age Regulations, the definition of discrimination includes:
    · Direct discrimination which occurs when an individual of one age is treated less favourably because of his/her age than others of a different age.
    · Indirect discrimination which occurs when an apparently age-neutral provision, criterion or practice has the effect ofdisadvantaging people of a particular age compared to others

    Both direct and indirect discrimination can be justified if the college can show that the less favourable treatment, or the provision, criterion or practice, is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. Case law in other areas of equality indicates that detailed consideration needs to be given to the “justification” in advance of doing the act, rather than seeking to justify it after a complaint is made.There are also a number of specific exemption, most of which concern the employment relationship.

    It is also worth noting Regulation 19which concerns “Qualification Bodies”. It states that it is unlawful for a qualification body to discriminate against a person in the terms on which it is prepared to confer a professional or trade qualification on him. “Qualification body” is defined as being any authority or body which can confer a professional or trade qualification. It is unlikely that this Regulation will apply to FE colleges.First, because it cannot apply where Regulation 23 (above) applies; and secondly, because it is likely that an FE college or other vocational training provider offers training and instruction that leads to assessment for other bodies’ awards (ie the college does not itself confer the award).

    There are various exceptions to the legislation which may apply to some of an FE college’s activities.Some of these are discussed below.It should be noted that until tested by court cases all current advice is provisional.Parliament sets the words of the legislation and Employment Tribunals and the Courts interpret those words.

    DTI Guidance

    The LSC cites the Department of Trade and Industry as the source of information on this subject.The DTI provides a useful resource with 8 “Age Legislation Fact Sheets” covering an over-view, objective justification, transitional arrangements, vocational training, service-related benefits, redundancy, retirement and occupational pensions. http://www.dti.gov.uk/employment/discrimination/age-discrimination/index.html

    Fact Sheet 4 (which concerns vocational training) makes it clear that“all courses” offered by further and higher education institutions will be covered by the Age Regulations as will other organisations, including private companies, that offer vocational training.The fact sheet states “colleges will not be able to set age limits for entry to training, unless they can show there is a real need to apply such limits”.It also makes it clear that “schools, including sixth-form providers, are excluded from the regulations on the grounds that the education of pupils in schools is not vocational training.”While that statement is true of schoolsixth forms, the same cannot be said of sixth form colleges which are conducted by further education corporations.There is a technical argument that Age Regulations are at fault in extending their application to sixth form colleges, but as the law stands, sixth form colleges are covered by the Age Regulations.

    As stated above the law recognises that differences in treatment on the grounds of age can sometimes be justified.However this needs to be objectively justified and should be “a proportionate way of achieving a legitimate aim”.The DTI fact sheets provide some further guidance on this, but perhaps the most significant aspect is that funding (or rather cost or expense) will not in itself be a valid justification.
    Last edited by mamadoo; 23rd June 2010, 22:48:PM.

  • #2
    Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

    Hi Mamado

    Welcome to Legal Beagles.

    It is a travisty when you want to go back and learn some new skills which would get you off benefits and working again.

    Maybe they are not the only College that does that course or similar, so you should try some others as well?

    I remember one of our other members a couple of years ago went back to college to do an BTEC Animal Management Course so I do know that they do take on mature students. How she got funded I am not aware.

    Tuttsi x

    ps you could try writing to your MP about this
    Last edited by TUTTSI; 24th June 2010, 07:34:AM. Reason: deleted a link that was not relevant, sorry

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

      I really feel for you, you have worked hard to get in a position to do what you want to do and its so frustrating to be knocked down solely due to your age. I'm doing a degree via distance learning with a university at the moment, and am really struggling with the funding due to my personal circumstances, but my age hasnt come into it at all. I also did a FE college course (BTEC) when I was 20 with no problems (self funded) and was offered a university place at 22 (again self funded) - they all welcomed me as a mature student, so your colleges attitude is a bit baffling to me.

      The government had some issues over their funding policies and the EU discrimination directives which dont seem to translate over to what the college are saying. I'd definately take it further. Making a complaint about discrimination : Directgov - Employment - help on discrimination but is geared towards the court process. Age discrimination in FE is a difficult one, they arent allowed to specify ages except in certain circumstances, but they have turned you down for a course with no age specification solely on your age claiming this is due to the way the government funds them. I think your MP could be useful, I don't think there is a FE ombudsman/adjudicator (like there is for universities) set up 'yet' they have been discussing it but I dont know how far that has gone.

      ''Training providers (including employers, further or higher education institutions, private, public or voluntary sector training bodies and adult education programmes) cannot set upper or lower age limits for training, unless they can objectively justify the need.'' Objectively justifying the need can mean anything - and funding can be a reason apparently, but it is def worth complaining to the college formally in the first instance, their student complaints should put you in touch with the relevant people once they realise you arent going to just give up.
      #staysafestayhome

      Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

      Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

        Thank you for the replies

        @Tuttsi I have looked into many colleges in fact i've spent almost 12 months deciding exactly which course is right for me and what options there are. Other than this the only way to to what I want to do is 3 courses at uni (2x1 year and one 3 years!) 5 years and getting lumbered with 3 sets of student loans is no option at all in my opinion. I'd most likely do better if I worked 3 cleaning jobs!! The idea of contacting my MP is a good one I'll give that a try now.

        It is true that I could study something else and do a different job in the end but for me study requires two thinks interest and commitment.
        I don't think that I'll have commitment enough to study anything else - because going to college will mean I will be mega skint for the next 2 years!
        It's unfair!
        I'm even getting a volunteer placement at a youth group where I'll able to run workshops and give me experience.
        I don't want to be unemployed - I WANT TO WORK!!! I want to be successful and make something of my life.
        AND now they have derailed my plans

        @amethyst I know what you mean, I was certainly the least expected response for me, if not totally unexpected! I totally feel that they are discriminating against me and at first when they said it was just funding I could half understand which is why I set out to find other ways of funding the course. BUT the second conversation, for me, made it clear they weren't willing to accept me of anyone else over 19 - which IS direct discrimination.
        Objectively justifying the need - fair enough - using funding as a means - OK - but when I am saying I will find another way to fund it and they still refuse? CONFUSED!!!

        I'm not going to give up even if I miss this years enrolment, if this is some bizarre policy that is coming into force I intend to do anything I can to change it.
        Not just for me but for every single person up and down the country who has or may experience something similar to me.

        John Hayes was appointed Minister of State for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.
        He was recently in the media because he said he is in favor of and wants to increase the budget for adult learning - despite cutbacks.
        I'm wondering if it's a good idea to contact him also?

        Thanks again!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

          Write to anyone and everyone you can think of - definately your MP and definately John Hayes. Also have you put in a formal complaint to the college ?

          Have you looked at the Adult Learning Grant as well to help you when you do get on this course ? (The Adult Learning Grant: are you eligible? : Directgov - Education and learning )

          Did they give you a course cost in the end ? Had a quick look at Lewisham and they offer the BTEC in Fashion at £1350 for the 1 yr course.
          #staysafestayhome

          Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

          Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

            No they refused to give me any information because it isn't open to my age.
            Thanks, at least now I have a ballpark figure
            I'm going to call them again later and speak to 'someone in charge' I want them to confirm what the other lady told me and then I'll ask them their reasons and get them to put it to me in writing.
            I haven't put in a complaint yet but intend to do so as soon as i've made that call.
            As far as I can see the Age regulations are in my favour as long as they don't come up with a valid reason, and if they do i'm going to challenge it.

            The new Equality Act 2010 even looks to be in my favour, wouldn't you say so?

            Chapter 2
            Further and higher education

            91 Students: admission and treatment, etc. Show EN
            (1) The responsible body of an institution to which this section applies must not discriminate against a person—
            (a) in the arrangements it makes for deciding who is offered admission as a student;
            (b) as to the terms on which it offers to admit the person as a student;
            (c) by not admitting the person as a student.
            (2) The responsible body of such an institution must not discriminate against a student—
            (a) in the way it provides education for the student;
            (b) in the way it affords the student access to a benefit, facility or service;
            (c) by not providing education for the student;
            (d) by not affording the student access to a benefit, facility or service;
            (e) by excluding the student;
            (f) by subjecting the student to any other detriment.
            (3) The responsible body of such an institution must not discriminate against a disabled person—
            (a) in the arrangements it makes for deciding upon whom to confer a qualification;
            (b) as to the terms on which it is prepared to confer a qualification on the person;
            (c) by not conferring a qualification on the person;
            (d) by withdrawing a qualification from the person or varying the terms on which the person holds it.
            (4) Subsection (3) applies only to disability discrimination.
            (5) The responsible body of such an institution must not harass—
            (a) a student;
            (b) a person who has applied for admission as a student;
            (c) a disabled person who holds or has applied for a qualification conferred by the institution.
            (6) The responsible body of such an institution must not victimise a person—
            (a) in the arrangements it makes for deciding who is offered admission as a student;
            (b) as to the terms on which it offers to admit the person as a student;
            (c) by not admitting the person as a student.
            (7) The responsible body of such an institution must not victimise a student—
            (a) in the way it provides education for the student;
            (b) in the way it affords the student access to a benefit, facility or service;
            (c) by not providing education for the student;
            (d) by not affording the student access to a benefit, facility or service;
            (e) by excluding the student;
            (f) by subjecting the student to any other detriment.
            (8) The responsible body of such an institution must not victimise a disabled person—
            (a) in the arrangements it makes for deciding upon whom to confer a qualification;
            (b) as to the terms on which it is prepared to confer a qualification on the person;
            (c) by not conferring a qualification on the person;
            (d) by withdrawing a qualification from the person or varying the terms on which the person holds it.
            (9) A duty to make reasonable adjustments applies to the responsible body of such an institution.
            (10) In relation to England and Wales, this section applies to—
            (a) a university;
            (b) any other institution within the higher education sector;
            (c) an institution within the further education sector.
            (11) In relation to Scotland, this section applies to—
            (a) a university;
            (b) a designated institution;
            (c) a college of further education.
            (12) A responsible body is—
            (a) in the case of an institution within subsection (10)(a), (b) or (c), the governing body;
            (b) in the case of an institution within subsection (11)(a) or (b), the governing body;
            (c) in the case of a college of further education under the management of a board of management, the board of management;
            (d) in the case of any other college of further education, any board of governors of the college or any person responsible for the management of the college, whether or not formally constituted as a governing body or board of governors.
            Hopefully I will give them a scare and they might roll over and allow me to enrol, but even if they do I still want to look into challenging this type of discrimination, both at this college and at any other establishment that provides (or doesn't!!!) Adult Education.

            Thanks again - fantastic site

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

              Just spoke to them...
              Apparently they are now going to push my application through and it is now up to the tutor to accept me on the course or not.
              They even spoke about the course being funded
              Although she dodged my questions about the other lady and didn't really give an explanation as to why I was treated this way.
              I told her about the advice I have already been given which contradicts information they gave me regarding funding and her words exactly were that it wasn't an issue with funding but more of an issue with my age.
              THAT IS AGE DISCRIMINATION!!!

              She also told me that the tutors don't like to accept 'mature' students on to this kind of course because it can be a disruption to the 'younger' students!!!
              I know I'll be no trouble.

              She said that my application had been passed on to the principals office and that I should be receiving a letter from their assistant.

              Well this seems to be getting more and more interesting by the minute I'll keep this thread updated because it will be good for anyone else who is in my situation.

              I'm getting on this course, whether they like it or not!!

              Chow.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                I think its all in your favour and the college tutors may be just scared of accepting mature students because they WANT to learn and can't be fobbed off with substandard teaching (just my opinion on that one mind!), you go for your life, you are in the right here and its your future they are messing with.

                Fingers crossed for you, if they turn you down again I'm sure you won't be giving up - keep us up to date and we're behind u if you need some support or a rant lol.

                It is sad to think that some people may have been bamboozeled after the first attempt and have gone off thinking 'ah well i left it too late best get that cleaning job after all' - worth fighting to set that straight.
                #staysafestayhome

                Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                  That was my thoughts!
                  I'm determined as you may have guessed, and once I set my sights on something I will stop at nothing.
                  It is a concern for me that there will be and already are people that have experienced this and have given up!
                  Hopefully I can make a difference to these people.

                  I'm just firing off a ton of letters to everyone and anyone hehe!

                  They seem to be backing down a little but I'm not going to take this as indication that they will let me on the course just yet.
                  It is possible that they will interview me and then say that they don't think it's suitable for me - for some non-reason they decide to invent!!

                  Still have to laugh or I'll cry - as if I didn't already feel like I was getting older FAST.
                  I don't think it's acceptable to discriminate against any age, but they are saying that having a 23 year old on the course amongst 16-19 is a bad idea.
                  If there is anyone who is 19 i'll only be 4 years older?! Still waiting for the punchline.

                  Thank you very much it is great to know I have the support of the fantastic people here!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                    Thank goodness someone is listening to you at the college. Fingers crossed that you will be accepted without any further barriers being placed before you.

                    I know when one of our members went to college a few years ago she was quite a lot older than the class but it did not make a difference to her or the other students, so that is a nonsense argument tbvh.

                    You go for it girl, there are too many obstacles in the way these days for people like you wanting to re-train and you are also very brave.

                    Tuttsi x

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                      Mamadoo, my best friend has just completed her first year of college at the age of 38, in a class of 16 -19 year olds.

                      She gave up a well paid job that she wasn't happy in to go back and study and although sometimes the kids drive her nuts with their attitude, she couldn't be happier.

                      So good luck and thank you for fighting for all mature students.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                        Haha Shell totally!!! I'm sure some of them will make me feel like screaming at times too (but feeling that way and acting that way will be the difference between me and them) and this can be said for people of all ages and it's like I told the college i'm going to learn not to make friends, but i'm sure we will get along just fine and if I have to I'll happily sit alone.

                        AND WOW!!! I never realised before how great it makes you feel to fight back against the system and the injustice that people face everyday, maybe I should become an activist. :tung:

                        Just a quick update...

                        I've been given some advice from an old friend who finished her law degree 2 years ago, and she shared my situation with some of the people at the firm she works for and they all agree that I definitely have a case worth fighting for. They have also confirmed that it is unlawful for the college to set limits for entry, with out a justifiable reason.
                        They suggested that to determine if they have a justifiable reason I should send in writing a series of questions regarding age discrimination, great idea, I will once I've heard from the tutor.
                        This was also confirmed by another legal website.
                        The legal website also told me that I may also have a possible claim of breach of Human Rights (Article 14).
                        I've had several offers for legal representation.

                        I also contacted TAEN - The Age and Employment Network, they weren't allowed to advise me but they attached a document regarding the Age regulations, and provided me with some suggestions of other things I can do.
                        They told me about the section of their website I hadn't noticed that allows you to check if you have a case.

                        One suggestion included Citizens Advice (which I will do should the tutor tell me no), and another was contacting the Equality and Human Rights commission helpline - something I hadn't thought of and so I emailed them and i'm awaiting a reply.

                        I have contacted my MP (Lib-Dem if anyone would like to know) and I quickly got a reply, they offered to support me and contact the college on my behalf - What a fantastic MP! I suggested waiting until I hear from the tutor first because until i'm a student there I don't want to cause any more problems for myself and I already have a slim chance of becoming one. I'm sure they will understand this.

                        Well at least now I have people backing me up.
                        I'll let you know if I hear anything and if I get any more replies.
                        Chow.

                        ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                        AND... I just worked out how to use the THANKS button :tinysmile_twink_t2:
                        Last edited by mamadoo; 25th June 2010, 19:45:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                          Whilst I am no authority on, funding, law & legislation relating to FE. I do have some personal experience in having to source funding for persons, similar age and position to yourself - which to be honest, up until the new Coalition came into power - had not been too problematic.

                          However, I find, since the New Government have been in Office, they have not been terribly forthcoming in their policies, realting to Education/Training for Students 19+ - which in turn, has caused Training Providers/Colleges to be somewhat vague in their discussions with potential 'Students' in this age range. ie: they have not been given clear enough guidance/training, in order for them to have a good working knowledge of the position. So I think, they simply 'sit on the fence' for fear of making promises, which may not be met.

                          As for the Age Discrimination Act/policy, I am of the opinion, previous courses at College, made available to age 16-18 year olds - was purely, owing to the funding being provided either in part or fully by the LSC (Learning Skills Council) >RIP. The age restriction being given, as part of their 'budgeting criteria' as a means of cost controlling, more than anything. You might be interested to learn, that despite age restrictions put on certain foundation courses, eg: 16-18 - if a student has Special educational Needs (defined by their being supported at School by a Statement of Special Educational Needs), provided you can show evidence of this, that age range becomes flexible.

                          Anyway, I specifically wanted to respond to you, with some information which may be very relevant to your requirements, which is this: you can apply for full course funding (fees), for a Full Level 2 Qualification - provided it is your first qualification at this level. So for example, if you left school with 5 GCSEs - then unlikely to apply. If however, you fell short of this and have no other higher qualification, then you should enquire for funding under 'Adult Entitlement to Level 2 Qualification'. If the College you want to attend, has no information - you can contact the Skills Agency (who replaced the LSC - Learning Skills Council) or other organisations, such as Next Steps, Connexions etc - will all have information - application forms to support you in accessing funding under this scheme.

                          As far as I am aware, this will not be subject to any changes made by the Government Spending Cuts - although it is not widely promoted? IT IS 100o/o AVAILABLE !!!

                          Hope this is of some help and good luck getting the Qualifications you require and well done for all your initiative in sourcing available guidance and funding in order for you to do so.

                          Hang in there!!!!!

                          PS: I should mention, same rules apply to a LEVEL 3 qualification !
                          Last edited by frances1p; 12th February 2011, 16:08:PM. Reason: to add PS:

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                            These days, I have this desire to go to back school and take on a course that I really like. I just realized that my former course wasn't what I really wanted. I appreciate the information in this thread regarding this matter.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Too old to learn?!? AT 23!!!!

                              Never give up........
                              You are not too old to learn a new career or skill.
                              I took up karate when I was 51, and computer repairs when I was 55.
                              So you just stick it out, put your mind and determination to whatever you want to do, and you will do it.
                              Good luck......
                              “The only man who sticks closer to you in adversity more than a friend, is a creditor.”

                              Comment

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