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Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

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  • #16
    Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

    Letter to Citi asking for refund 12th May 2007
    POC submitted 6th July 2007



    Defence to the Claim submitted 31 July 2007

    I dispute the full amount claimed

    1. The Defendant is a Credit Card company whose registered office is at etc

    2. The Defendant admits that it operates a credit card business at etc

    3. The Defendant furthur admits that the claimant currently has a credit card account (?the Agreement?) with the defendant which was opened in or about August 2003 and avers that the outstanding balance on the account as at the day of filing is £280.21.

    4. The Defendant admits that the Agreement with the claimant contains terms entitling the Defendant to levy late payment and overlimit charges and avers that the claimant knew and agreed to such clauses at the time of entering into the agreement.

    5. The Defendant denies that :
    5.1. the charges exceed the defendant?s losses caused by such breaches:
    5.2 the term permitting the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable under the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999, the unfair contract terms act 1977 and at common law; and or:
    5.3 unreasonable under section 15 of the supply of goods and services Act 1982 and puts the claimant to strict proof of this by reference to specific cases,citation of relevant sections of Acts or Regulations.
    6. The Defendant denies that it unlawfully debited the claimants account. The Defendant submits that the claimant has failed to particularize the same and puts the claimant to strict proof of the sum claimed by reference to dates and amounts.
    7. The Defendant admits that, during the life of the account, the sum of £300 (net of 1 refund of £25 overlimit fee) was debited to the claimant?s account by way of late payment and over limit fees as per the terms and conditions of the Agreement which the Claimant entered into with the Defendant.
    8. The Claimant is claiming as a money claim a sum equivalent to that which he claims was unlawfully debited to his account over the term of the agreement in over limit charges and late payment fees. This claim is entirely based on the recent OFT statement on the alleged unfairness of such default fees. The OFT stated that the level at which default charges, though not the principle of default charging itself, was unfair in the context of the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999. It also reported that the charges were, in its opinion, a penalty contrary to common law principles of damages for breach of contract.
    9. The Defendant has agreed to obide by the OFT report and adopt a lower level of default fees which it has set at the new industry standard of £12. Over the lifetime of this account the claimant has set its charges at £25. The Defendant has made an ex gratia refund of the difference between £25 and the current default charge of £12. This amounts to £156 and this sum is being credited to the claimants account.
    10. The Defendant avers that it does not owe the claimant any furthur monies claimed whether on the basis of the case stated or at all.
    11. The Defendant avers that the claimants claim is not a money claim but damages action and furthur avers that the claimants interest calculation is not applicable to this action or if it is that it is set out without particularity and the



    It stops there hadnt noticed at the time it is typed into a N98 form and there is no more space in that block!
    Last edited by skintlass; 17th April 2010, 11:20:AM.

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    • #17
      Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

      Would it be acceptable for me to go on Husbands behalf on Monday?

      What I would need to do is say Here are My Husbands Arguements etc and had over a few sheets of facts etc, Is that an option?

      Also I appreciate honesty so If I havent got a chance please warn me etc?

      Thanks for your help

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

        Ok, I've closed the thread at BC because its going to get confusing otherwise. So just to update..

        Originally posted by pennypincher2008
        Charges £300 Interest 31.20% £972.49 interest at 8% daily rate 28p at the time July 06 this was total amount claimed £1392.49 including court costs etc.
        I have a suspicion that the above is where they might be wanting to have you for insufficiently particularising your claim.

        Is this what you are reclaiming?
        Charges - £300
        Interest (presumably at their own rate) 31.20% - £972.49
        S.69 interest at 8% - 28p per day

        I would guess that they could be planning to make a fight about the interest, since you are applying 2 lots of interest, if the breakdown above is correct.. There is no reson given in the POC as to why you are claiming this interest. As has been proven in another case that went to court, using the sempra case, you can argue for compound interest, but there is nothing to say you could use their own rate and certainly nothing to say you can claim this aswell as S.69 8%

        Originally posted by pennypincher2008 View Post
        Yes, This what I put in my POC back in 2006 as This is what I was lead to believe at the beginning I should do, was this wrong? if so what do I do now please?
        I believe it is wrong. I'm not really sure what we can do about that right now, given that there is no time left to negotiate. However, before you can get to the argument about interest, the main issue itself will need to be addressed, that is that they are claiming that their costs are = to the £12 charges.
        If their defence is denying that the charges exceed their costs, then I think they would be mad to risk stepping into court to have to answer that, so on this point they are as snookered as you are in that they have no defence to this point, just as you have no cause for applying the interest in the way you did.
        Your saving grace here is, they will come to their hurdle first..

        My guess is that they are attempting to put the fear of god into you, but are unlikely to turn up on the day. But, that is just my gut feeling, we have to prepare like you're going to meet them in court. Which court is it by the way?

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

          Portsmouth

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

            Yes email from Shoosmiths at 10 to 6 last night saying they were instructing an agent to attend, though it really doesn't sound convincing. From the emails over recent days their strategy has been simply to browbeat the claimant into accepting whatever they want by using fear of them claiming costs if you don't.

            They lied in writing about the OFT 2006 report stating that their £12 rate was fair and reasonable and backed off when challenged about this with evidence of what the OFT actually did say. They just go on with the same jaded arguments that their costs have always exceeded the charges they apply. No evidence whatsoever and they ignored the fact that they have a responsibility to prove that their charges are fair.

            Remember as well that this is a hearing to dismiss the claim, with no time stated. The court's idea is to dismiss the claim altogether, and the only argument put forward by the court (AFAIK) is based on the SC judgment, not the quality of the claim itself.

            In theory, it should be straightforward to defend the dismissal on the grounds that the claim is entirely unrelated to the Test Case, should never have been stayed and should now be allowed to proceed. Regarding Citi's attempts to get costs, this could only be done on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour, as they admit. Here, you have a legitimate claim wrongly stayed and the def attempting to capitalise on this error to seek the claimant's agreement for dismissal and to pay them costs. Their behaviour has been wholly unreasonable and in some cases actually deceitful, such as the misrepresentation of the OFT's statements.

            I can't think of a parallel to this, to base ideas on of how it might go. They could be planning to go anyway to press the claim for costs, though its not clear what grounds they would use for unreasonable behaviour given the way the court has mishandled the claim and the def has acted.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

              I dont think I will be able to attend court tomorrow on Hubbys behalf, I think I will fax the court on hubbys behalf explaining he cant make it, that the court shouldnt of stayed the claim and hope that the Judge gives us a hearing date ,Any advice on what to put in the letter would be great!

              We have already sent the court a copy of the letter from shoesmiths asking for costs and a letter explaining that the claim shouldn't have been stayed etc.

              This is the letter we sent to the court 10 days ago recorded delivery.



              07th April 2010


              Dear District Judge ,

              I am due to attend a preliminary hearing at 2pm 19th April to enable the court to dispose of the above claim as the court states there is no real prospect of success by the claimant. The claim was stayed pending the final determination of the OFT test case, However as the claim is a Credit Card The claim was wrongly stayed because it is completely unconnected with the recent Test Case initiated by the OFT on bank charges, while the Supreme Court ruling relates only to unfair charges applied to personal current accounts. Credit Cards did not come under the remit of the SC ruling.

              I would also like to bring to your attention the recent correspondence I have had from the defendant’s Solicitor, see attached and I hope that they will now enter into a meaningful they now enter into a meaningful dialogue regarding settlement of the claim, in order to prevent an unnecessary burden on the courts time.


              we enclosed a copy of Citi's letter asking for costs.
              Last edited by skintlass; 18th April 2010, 19:54:PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                You need to decide now how you want to play this one. Citi have always made it clear that their intention is to play on the wrongful stay and get the claim struck out even though its a credit card claim. They have also made it clear that they intend to seek costs against you if they can get a court to award this and to do so they will have to invent a case that you have behaved unreasonably.

                The hearing tomorrow is stated as being only to decide on dismissal of the claim, although this is clearly wrongly based on the Supreme Court ruling on bank charges. The key thing therefore is to stop the court wrongly dismissing the claim. Details of the claim and defence (bundles) have not been exchanged for a full hearing, so presumably if you did succeed in getting the court to recognise that you have a legitimate claim, then you would still need to fight Citi laater. Unless you are prepared to take whatever they offer, you can expect that you will need to go to court and fight them and they will lie to the court to keep the charges and to make out that you have behaved unreasonably.

                This is an unusual case, but I guess you have several options.
                1. Contact the solicitor first thing and say you will accept their measly increase to prevent the need for a hearing, but that you will not agree to any costs as you have not behaved unreasonably. If you do this it needs to be confirmed in writing and you must not trust them on any verbal agreement.
                2. Write a witness statement for them and the court pointing out that the claim should never have been stayed, that it needs to be listed for hearing, that the defendants have behaved unreasonably and have failed to make a credible offer etc. This could be done in a way that counters any arguments that they might use to claim that you have acted unreasonably here.


                I don't know if they will still send somone, but my guess is that if you don't go and they do then they will manipulate the court, as presence is very important. I can't immediately think of a third option here. If you are not prepared to go to court tomorrow or subsequently, then you really need to see how you can close this off without allowing them to claim costs against you. I don't know whether this could be done just by sending a last-minute statement, but you do have some very strong points. At the end of the day so much depends on the luck of the drawer with the judge and if they have laready decided to dismiss the claim then that's what they will do.
                ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                The other point to make here is that the POC sought both CI and SI at 8%. You have probably no hope of pursuing a CI claim without going to court and I don't see grounds here to amend the POC as nothing substantial has changed in 3 years that affects this.

                In short, the whole emphasis here needs to be on getting the court to recognise that you want a realistic settlement with Citi rather than to drag this out to an unnecessary hearing. The statement will need to stress that they have not made a reasonable offer, but that you would be willing to accept one.
                Last edited by Kafka; 18th April 2010, 20:01:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                  I am thinking I will go with option 1!!!

                  Why or why did I not take the measly offer on Friday!!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                    What is the offer in total with what you have already been paid? Is it all the amounts over £12 and 8% interest, with no refund of the court fees and them saying they would not try to get costs?

                    The problem here is that if they say no then you have nothing to put before the court and they can lie as much as they want to because you won't be there to correct them.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                      The total charges is £300 (12 x £25) they have refunded £156 which they state is the difference between the £12 and the £25 charge.

                      The offer of £89.93 is in respect of interest charged at 8%.
                      but no mention of the £120 court fee.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                        So they have refunded the amounts over £12 already and the latest amount was only the interest they owe you at 8%.

                        Did they refuse to give you any refund at all before you filed at court?

                        By refunding the amounts over £12 - which they concede were wrong - then they must refund the court fees as they need never have been paid if Citi had not denied all responsibility.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                          They didnt make an offer at all so I submitted the claim when they filed their defence they credited the funds into my Husbands account of £156 they put in their defence that they did that.

                          so Basically are we saying they need to pay the £86.93 they say is the 8% interest plus the £120 court fees.?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                            If that interest only SI on the amounts over £12, what period does it cover? You have already been paid the amounts, so was it calculated to the day they were repaid?
                            ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
                            So what do you want to do?

                            You could email the solicitor tonight and state that you will accept the discontinuance of the claim, but only on condition that they refund the Statutory Interest at 8% and the court fee of £120 that was only necessitated because they originally denied all responsibility for overcharging and only admitted the amounts over £12 were unlawful after their intransigence had forced you to file at court to get justice.

                            You would need to state that unless they accept this offer - with no order as to costs - then you will inform the court, detailing the issues and also the behaviour of the defendant's solicitors in misrepresenting facts to obstruct justice.
                            Last edited by Kafka; 18th April 2010, 20:51:PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                              I am not sure how they have worked out the interest but the claim was issued 17th July 2007 and they say 8% interest is £89.93. I havent been paid any interest to date just the differnce in the charges between £12 and £25.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Citi Preliminary asking for costs too - Help needed Please

                                So what do you think, as per #28?

                                Comment

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