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Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

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  • Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

    THIS IS A DRAFT - you need to personalise it to your own situation. This one is for HSBC account opened in 1994 (you'll see which bits need amending)
    It would be an idea to go through and think of examples where each point applies to your situation and experiences with the bank, and if you can evidence issues with information from your bank transaction history. For ideas have a look at the FOS letter - FOS responses to keep complaint open.... - Legal Beagles

    This will be the basis for all banks really - of course it needs individualising with the correct terms and conditions and wording from letters etc - there are a lot of examples of letters on this thread Charge Notification Letters Required - Legal Beagles and there is a number of terms and conditions Banks Terms and Conditions and Standard Contracts - Legal Beagles and specific charging terms can be found in the OFT documents (excel files)
    Schedule A to OFT's particulars of claim (Excel 156 kb)
    Schedule B to OFT's particulars of claim (Excel 586 kb)

    We will slowly build a library of sample letters for each bank but people will still need to amend and personalise the letters heavily.

    Also read FOS responses to keep complaint open.... - Legal Beagles

    ALL RED BITS NEED PERSONALISING.

    YOU need to outline some examples of where you feel the charges were imposed unfairly (so for example if you made a transaction that was worth less than the charge imposed and they bounced it, but charged the fee - that doesnt really demonstrate much consideration ---- also things like order of transactions being altered to gain the largest number of fees (so look for places in statements with multiple fees) have you ever tried to request an overdraft extension but been refused, then they have paid stuff anyway and charged you for it. etc.

    I'd suggest doing that first - it will involve some time and effort and you will need to sit down with your transaction lists. If you don't have full transaction lists as you original only asked for a list of charges (aka MSE's advice) then you will neeed to go back to the bank and ask for full transaction lists - you should reply to the bank that that is the case and outline your reasons based on the below information.




    This is likely to be refined and updated over coming days.

    Use of any sample letters is at your own risk.



    Dear Sirs

    Thank you for your letter dated xx/xx/xxxx in which you state you will be ''not upholding your complaint and we will not be refunding the bank charges.''

    You have stated that this is due to the Supreme Court Judgment ''confirming that the bank charges are not capable of amounting to penalties at common law and that the level of them cannot be assessed for fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations.''


    Whilst I recognise that this is the case and that the banks terms are unable to be assessed in terms of price under regulation 6(2)b of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (UTCCR), and as indicated in the Supreme Court judgment the terms are not precluded from the assessment of fairness under regulation 5(1), I still consider the overall contract including terms which allowed you to impose charges on my account to be unfair by virtue of regulation 5(1) of the UTCCR. I also consider the terms to be in breach of section 140 of the Consumer Credit Act.

    Your letter also states that ''If you believe that the charges are unfair on grounds other than the level of charges, or that we have failed to address all the issues raised in your complaint, you may escalate your concerns by contacting us setting out the details so that we can consider this further''.

    Please find the details of my concerns set out below:

    I consider there was an imbalance in the contract to my detriment as consumer because;


    • I consider that HSBC by virtue of the contract can choose which service they offer without consideration for or confirmation of what I intended. For example you could consider a request for overdraft and pay or simply reject payment on grounds of lack of funds. In performing these services you act as agent for the myself and therefore should have had regard to the Consumer‘s intent. The Consumer‘s intent may be for the request to be facilitated if there are sufficient funds, to be rejected if there are not or to be asked for confirmation (where practicable) otherwise. However the contract denies the Consumer the opportunity to express that or any specific intent other than that determined by the Banks.

      This is evidenced by TRANSACTIONS WHICH EVIDENCE THIS

    • I consider that a request to pay is not necessarily a request for overdraft except by virtue of the non-negotiated contract terms. The overdraft assessment is not optional, additionally there was no opt out possibility at commencement of the contract and therefore it acts contrary to good faith and is therefore unfair.

    • I suggest that if an 'overdraft extension request' was declined, there is no reason why the Bank's answer for any subsequent requests should be any different if the account balance has not changed other than by virtue of the Relevant Charges being applied? The Consumer could therefore not intend subsequent payments to be requests for assessment, and it would be to their detriment for them to be regarded as such. If the fee was argued to be for checking the Consumer's account, the Banks would actually be providing the same service as they otherwise provide for free and therefore no further consideration should be required unless the circumstances are materially different.

      This is evidenced by TRANSACTIONS/EXAMPLES WHICH EVIDENCE THIS

    • It is apparent that I am required to subsidise the running and/or operation costs of accounts other than that of my own. In so doing so the Bank‘s charging structure reverses the usual pattern of cross subsidisation by delivering heavily subsidised banking services to those with the most financial competence or resources at the expense of those with the least.

    • I contend that you have control over the distribution of my salary or benefits paid into the account, and the relevant terms allow for the automatic application of the relevant Charges, with little or no notice to the Consumer.

      I suggest that if an 'overdraft extension request' was declined, there is no reason why the Bank's answer for any subsequent requests should be any different if the account balance has not changed other than by virtue of the Relevant Charges being applied? The Consumer could therefore not intend subsequent payments to be requests for assessment, and it would be to their detriment for them to be regarded as such. If the fee was argued to be for checking the Consumer's account, the Banks would actually be providing the same service as they otherwise provide for free and therefore no further consideration should be required unless the circumstances are materially different.

      This is evidenced by TRANSACTIONS/EXAMPLES WHICH EVIDENCE THIS

    • In my experience HSBC, by virtue of the relevant contracts, have priority over my other debtors with regards to the application and payment of the relevant Charges to the Account. There is no consideration in advance of applying the charge as to whether or not the bank applies the charge.

    • Additionally, the HSBC's contracts include a right of offset by which they are able to offset an unauthorised overdraft from my savings or other account. An imbalance exists in the contract as there is no equivalent equitable arrangement in favour of the Consumer. There is no contractual means by which additional funds, required to enable payment of a transaction and which would otherwise trigger relevant charges, could automatically be transferred from my savings account or other account to the relevant personal current account by the Bank.

      I suggest that if an 'overdraft extension request' was declined, there is no reason why the Bank's answer for any subsequent requests should be any different if the account balance has not changed other than by virtue of the Relevant Charges being applied? The Consumer could therefore not intend subsequent payments to be requests for assessment, and it would be to their detriment for them to be regarded as such. If the fee was argued to be for checking the Consumer's account, the Banks would actually be providing the same service as they otherwise provide for free and therefore no further consideration should be required unless the circumstances are materially different.

      This is evidenced by TRANSACTIONS/EXAMPLES WHICH EVIDENCE THIS

    • The relevant terms have frequently forced me into a cycle of debt, where the Relevant Charges directly or indirectly give rise to the application of additional charges to the account, without any restriction or limitation.


    I also consider that your bank has purposefully misled me into believing the charges were a penalty for my breaching the terms of the contract between myself and your bank. In fact your terms & conditions make no reference whatsoever to the charges relating to the provision of any 'service', which was HSBC's adopted pleaded position during the test case.

    The relevant terms at the time I opened my account were;

    • 1994

      7.2 You must always keep your current account in credit unless we have agreed an overdraft with you.

      7.3 You must not go over any' overdraft limit that is agreed with us unless you get our agreement first.

    • ANY OTHER TERMS APPLICABLE TO THE PERIOD YOU HELD YOUR ACCOUNT


    This belief was compounded by letters you have sent me at times when my account has incurred your charges which stated;

    • August 2002 ''We will deduct £30.00 from your account to cover the cost of recalling this standing order''

    This misrepresentation appears to have been recognised by yourself in September this year when you informed customers;
    • September 2008 '' In the Terms and Conditions prior to September 2007 the above stated explanation would not have used the terminology of 'informal overdraft' they would have described the fees being incurred as default charges as the account is not running within its agreed limit. In the most recent Terms and Conditions the charges are no longer described as default charges. I apologise for any confusion cause to yourself regarding this matter''

    I feel this was unlawful under the Misrepresentation Act 1967 or, at common law, as a unilateral mistake from which your bank knowingly benefited.
    • HSBC misrepresented that the relevant terms were penal as opposed to contracting to provide services, or

    • HSBC were aware of your Customer‘s 'mistaken belief' that their relevant terms were penal but failed to correct this, to the detriment of the Consumer but to the benefit of the Banks, alternatively HSBC were aware that the relevant terms were penal in nature but realised they could argue they were in exchange for a package of services and misrepresented to the court accordingly.

    In any case, the conduct of my account has relied on the misrepresented but reasonable assumption that the relevant terms were related to costs rather than service charges and I contend that the charges should not have been part of the consideration in exchange for any so called contracted 'package' of services.

    Therefore I request you continue to consider my complaint and refund charges imposed under the contract between 1994 and 2009 as previously requested.

    Yours faithfully

    Customer
    Last edited by Amethyst; 6th January 2010, 09:25:AM.
    #staysafestayhome

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

  • #2
    Re: HSBC - sample response to Bank rejection letter

    This will be the basis for all banks really - of course it needs individualising with the correct terms and conditions and wording from letters etc - there are a lot of examples of letters on this thread Charge Notification Letters Required - Legal Beagles and there is a number of terms and conditions Banks Terms and Conditions and Standard Contracts - Legal Beagles and specific charging terms can be found in the OFT documents (excel files)
    Schedule A to OFT's particulars of claim (Excel 156 kb)
    Schedule B to OFT's particulars of claim (Excel 586 kb)

    We will slowly build a library of sample letters for each bank but people will still need to amend and personalise the letters heavily.

    Also read FOS responses to keep complaint open.... - Legal Beagles
    #staysafestayhome

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

      It would appear that there are no T&C's for First Direct in the Vault. I am pretty certain that First Direct T&C's differ from the general HSBC ones.

      As I am currently working on my response to First Direct, if anyone does have the T&C's for First Direct then I would appreciate them being posted up and/or a copy.

      Cheers

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

        is there one for rbs?

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

          The basis will be the same bonsaii but of course the terms would differ and you need to use your own transaction information/circumstances.

          First Direct Terms Jest - Current http://www.firstdirect.com/cgi-bin/p.../nov_terms.pdf and 2003 first direct legals - principal terms and conditions (all I can find at mo)
          #staysafestayhome

          Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

          Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

            Hi,
            not sure if this is relevant, but I had a message in my secure messages when I checked my online account earlier with HSBC. It was a pretty bog standard type thing basically detailing about the banking investors compensation scheme. However, it did state that the terms were applicable to HSBC individual account holders, joint account holders and business account holders; also to First Direct customers as these are both under the same 'umbrella' so to speak. Not sure if it means T&C's would be same, but surmising it prob does? CatX

            Paper clips - the larval stage of coat-hangers!

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

              If anyone does use this letter as a basis for responding to your bank can you post up the finished article (excluding anything too personal) so we can get a better idea of the kinds of examples people are using and judge if anything needs amending or making clearer (take out personal details). Will also help with the terms for the different banks as well. Ta muchly
              #staysafestayhome

              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                I am not far off having finished my response to First Direct so will post it up when I am ready - probably by the end of tomorrow as I am alternating between being a taxi service for my kids and trying to watch the live European rugby on Sky Sports (Go Ospreys !!) today. Would appreciate some clarification as to what is expected in some of those red bits though as to my eyes, the same information could go into a lot of them which seems somewhat repetitive and counter-productive to me.

                Biggest problem at the moment is finding a letter stating that I am about to be charged/penalised for going over my overdraft limit. I've not held an FD account for almost 3 years now and had a pretty good clearout of old paperwork when I moved my home office upstairs last Summer.

                Good news is that I have finally found my court bundle - but not the actual court documents unfortunately. By my reckoning, I still have another 4 weeks to respond to FD (they wrote to me on 23rd December), but want to get my response in way before then.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                  Thanks Jest. I think I was trying to over simplify things - you really want to merge instances of where you think the imbalances are in with the rest of the letter rather than specifically listing transactions.

                  Like I did in the FOS letter example

                  ''
                  I suggest that if an 'overdraft extension request' was declined, there is no reason why the Bank's answer for any subsequent requests should be any different if the account balance has not changed other than by virtue of the Relevant Charges being applied. On APPROX DATE I contacted the bank to request an overdraft extension as I knew had fewer funds in my account than necessary to fulfill my transaction obligations - the bank denied this request, however they subsequently honoured the transactions taking me into 'unauthorised' overdraft and in addition imposed charges totalling £XXXXX to the account, attracting a greater rate of interest. This in turn led me to struggle the following month attracting further charges. Had the bank accepted my request for a temporary extension to the overdraft facility I would have met my obligations succesfully and incurred a single overdraft assessment fee, and the cycle of debt, created in the most part by the bank, would have been much less likely to occur. In addition where the bank decided not to pay certain items, and I had no prior knowledge nor control over which items the bank decided to pay or return, I incurred additional charges from my other creditors and suppliers for not making the payments in time. This presented a further liability of £25 (etc) which obviously made it harder to return to a positive balance and again meet my obligations in the next statement period.''

                  Hence why it is impossible to do a standard template, all we can do is give people the main arguments and let them argue those which suit their experiences.


                  #staysafestayhome

                  Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                  Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                    Has anyone written to Halifax trying to continue their claim since receiving a standard reply from them stating that we have 8 weeks to reply or the matter will be closed? I am trying to establish the best way to continue my complaint but am unsure as to the best path to take, ie which part of Halifax's terms and conditions to query to carry the complaint on?
                    I realise that there is now no such thing as a template anymore due to the individual nature of each complaint, but some guidance/advice would be very much appreciated.

                    Thanks,

                    Dan

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                      I had a response back from First Direct to the letter I sent them (as described above). It arrived mid-week, but I have been working away from home so only now can post up what they said:

                      Dear Mr Jester,

                      Thankyou for your letter dated 21st January 2010.

                      I am sorry you had cause to complain. The issue you have raised is being investigated and a response will be issued shortly, certainly within the next 28 working days.

                      For your information, I've enclosed a copy of our leaflet 'listening to your comments' which provides further details about the bank's complaint procedure.

                      Your sincerely,
                      Deborah Malins
                      Customer Relations



                      Pretty bog-standard reply, but at least they did not dismiss the letter outright. Hopefully, that response means that they did not expect the arguments presented to them in my letter. I strongly suspect they have passed it to their legal department to review before making a response.

                      Hey-ho. Let's see what their next step is before taking it further. At least they have not treid to have the stay lifted on my court claim against them yet.

                      Will let you all know if anything further develops

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                        Thanks Jester, look forward to their full response.

                        Originally posted by danmc77 View Post
                        Has anyone written to Halifax trying to continue their claim since receiving a standard reply from them stating that we have 8 weeks to reply or the matter will be closed? I am trying to establish the best way to continue my complaint but am unsure as to the best path to take, ie which part of Halifax's terms and conditions to query to carry the complaint on?
                        I realise that there is now no such thing as a template anymore due to the individual nature of each complaint, but some guidance/advice would be very much appreciated.

                        Thanks,

                        Dan
                        If your claim isnt yet in court and you want to continue with your complaint then yes you need to reply to the bank in similar terms as the letters exampled earlier in this thread. You basically are telling the bank WHY you think the charges are unfair in terms OTHER than the price of individual charges.

                        If you have a good read of the letters you should get the basic idea, then start up your own thread with any questions/draft letters etc and we'll help all we can.
                        #staysafestayhome

                        Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                        Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                          Thanks Amethyst.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                            A response from A&L on a letter based on the sample response below
                            #staysafestayhome

                            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                            Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Sample response to Bank to keep complaint in progress....

                              Is this still valid now as if so it would help me enormously!

                              Comment

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