• Welcome to the LegalBeagles Consumer and Legal Forum.
    Please Register to get the most out of the forum. Registration is free and only needs a username and email address.
    REGISTER
    Please do not post your full name, reference numbers or any identifiable details on the forum.

Virgin are getting on my last nerve

Collapse
Loading...
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: Virgin are getting on my last nerve

    Originally posted by frisp View Post
    Thanks for the email addr, I'll give it a whirl what's his appointment @ virgin
    I believe he is Chief Executive - or one of
    Redletter.


    I believe the struggle for financial freedom is unfair - I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires.......(Darren Hayes/Savage Garden)

    "Get up at 6 face another day another red letter in the mail-already taken my TV away-whatever I earn there's always more to pay.....Gotta turn these rags to riches turn the pennies into pounds cos right now all my days are bitches and I'm tired of being down!." Copyright Change! (Redletter 2006).

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Virgin are getting on my last nerve

      There is hope!
      I just got this RE my complaint;
      Hello Steven

      As requested, I have cancelled the account and as a gesture of goodwill cleared the balance to zero. I have arranged for a equipment returns package to be be sent by post, please would you return the set top box.

      If I could be of any further help in this matter, please let me know.
      Redletter.


      I believe the struggle for financial freedom is unfair - I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires.......(Darren Hayes/Savage Garden)

      "Get up at 6 face another day another red letter in the mail-already taken my TV away-whatever I earn there's always more to pay.....Gotta turn these rags to riches turn the pennies into pounds cos right now all my days are bitches and I'm tired of being down!." Copyright Change! (Redletter 2006).

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Virgin are getting on my last nerve

        Thanks to Redletters suggestion regarding an email to Neil B @ Virgin, I've been bombarded with calls asking how they can help.

        I received a letter in response to all the ones I've sent basically expounding on what is in the T&Cs and the following due to my contact with Mr B

        Dear Frisp

        Your account details have been passed to me with regards to your ongoing complaint with Virgin Mobile. I work as part of a small team whose role is to resolve complaints received by our Directors once they’ve reached the end of our complaints process.

        I’m sorry to hear that the most recent letter we sent you hasn’t answered the complaint to your satisfaction so I’d like to take this opportunity to clarify the points you’ve raised in your email to xxxxx.

        Money has been debited from your account as per the terms and conditions of the contract for the services that we’ve provided you with. I understand that you asked for no money to be debited whilst you are in dispute with us however we’ve previously received rulings from our Ombudsman to say that customers in dispute should continue to pay their bills and shouldn’t use the option of canceling their Direct Debit. I fully appreciate that you believe we should put a hold on the amounts until the dispute is resolved however we have no current process for doing this for customers and I need to check the legalities of it with our Legal Team. They have been off site today so I’ll be checking this with them first thing on Monday morning.

        All of our contracts and sim only deals are provided with terms and conditions of service and it’s information held within these that explain how you can spend more than the advertised monthly amount and also explain about how the credit limit works. I hope you can appreciate that when we advertise contracts we try to keep the information as simple as possible as it would be unrealistic to expect all of the info held in the terms and conditions to be included in the advertisement although there will always be links to this information if you’re looking online. I also believe it would be unreasonable to expect a Sales agent to go through all of this info during a sales call. For this reason the terms and conditions are provided to you when the contract is delivered and you have a 28 day satisfaction guarantee in which you can cancel the contract if you’re not happy with it.

        As the contract wasn’t cancelled under the terms of our guarantee, you are deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions which clearly explain usage outside of your monthly allowance and how it will be charged for. This is the fundamental reason that we disagree with your view.

        If you’d like to have a look at the terms and conditions they can be found here.

        As I’ve mentioned, I’m going to speak with our Legal Team on Monday and I’ll be able to update you in due course about the OFT guidelines. If you’d like to discuss the matter further I’ll be in again from Monday between 9 and 5 but I’m more than happy to speak with you outside of these hours if we can arrange a convenient time to talk. Otherwise I’m also happy corresponding via email until we can either resolve the matter or we’ve reached a position of deadlock.

        Regards,
        I responded with the following

        Dear Sir
        Thank you for your email dated 26 Jun 09 and for the letter from Ms xxxxxxxxxxxx dated 21 Jun 09, contents of both are noted.

        Ms xxxxxxxxxx letter was very informative and full of salient contractual points, however there is one too many shoulds in her response and not enough here is the proof that these things were sent and received.

        If there was a letter sent that informed me of my credit limit please provide me with a copy of said. She states also that the credit limit is stated on the 2nd page of my bill, this presupposes that I had been informed that there was a credit limit, which I wasn’t, and therefore would not naturally have looked for this term.

        She has also requested that I call and discuss this issue with a posse of people before you send out your complaint procedure, I’m afraid once asked for Virgin are obliged to send said, not apply conditions before they action the request.

        She says that you do not offer the facility to pay by Standing Order; if this is true, I’d revise this process as it’s prohibited under European Law. It is not for the supplier to dictate how they will accept payments rather its up to the consumer; you are allowed, however, to make a charge ‘sufficient’ to recover your costs of such an customer request.

        Please provide me with details requested so that I can set up a standing order once ooe dispute is resolved

        Onto your email;
        Money has been debited from your account as per the terms and conditions of the contract for the services that we’ve provided you with.

        I maintain I was not directed to these terms and Conditions when I applied for this account and request again for Virgin to prove that this occurred.
        I understand that you asked for no money to be debited whilst you are in dispute with us however we’ve previously received rulings from our Ombudsman to say that customers in dispute should continue to pay their bills and shouldn’t use the option of cancelling their Direct Debit.

        If this is truly the case then the Ombudsmans’ advice is in conflict with the Office of Fair Trading (OFT664) Guidance (Final guidance on unfair business practices) July 2003 (updated December 2006)), applicable to all organisations who hold a credit licence.
        Deceptive and/or unfair methods (pg 6)
        S2.8
        i.Failing to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate, when a debt is queried or disputed.
        k.Not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt.

        I fully appreciate that you believe we should put a hold on the amounts until the dispute is resolved however we have no current process for doing this for customers and I need to check the legalities of it with our Legal Team. They have been offsite today so I’ll be checking this with them first thing on Monday morning.

        Its not what I believe that is important but what the Office of Fair Trading has directed as guidance in matters of disputes between consumers and organisations offering financial or other services to the public.

        All of our contracts and sim only deals are provided with terms and conditions of service and it’s information held within these that explain how you can spend more than the advertised monthly amount and also explain about how the credit limit works.

        You have not proven that I was directed to these terms or conditions when I took out the contract. As stated previously, my expectation when I applied for a ‘fixed call and text deal’ was that it would do what it said on the tin, the key word here is ‘fixed’.

        In my view it’s a deception that allows people to overspend without a direct request from the consumer for an Extn of their talk or text time. My point is that unless they are aware that overspending is possible, the consumer has no choice, by default Virgin allows this practice to continue as it’s to their benefit.

        I hope you can appreciate that when we advertise contracts we try to keep the information as simple as possible as it would be unrealistic to expect all of the info held in the terms and conditions to be included in the advertisement although there will always be links to this information if you’re looking online.

        The fact that the advertised ‘fixed’ isn’t actually true, is surely a salient and important term that needs defining when informing consumers what they are in the process of signing up to.

        Office of Fair Trading guidance; Communication (pg3)
        2.2 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:
        b.Leaving out or presenting information in such a way that it creates a false or misleading impression or exploits debtors' lack of knowledge.

        I also believe it would be unreasonable to expect a Sales agent to go through all of this info during a sales call. For this reason the terms and conditions are provided to you when the contract is delivered and you have a 28 day satisfaction guarantee in which you can cancel the contract if you’re not happy with it.

        It’s not unreasonable to have your sales agents to explain fully the extent of the contract being entered into. Using the, I’m afraid ‘you should have read the contract’ excuse is no longer a guarantee of success.

        It is my assertion that Virgin should direct consumers to areas of the contract that require special attention i.e. the definition of the term ‘fixed’ and the conditions where the term ‘fixed’ no longer applies. This direction did not occur during the sales call nor did it occur in any correspondence.

        I maintain that the product as advertised was misleading and did not allow me, the consumer, to fully assess the impact of entering into this contract prior to delivery and initial use of the product.

        As the contract wasn’t cancelled under the terms of our guarantee, you are deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions which clearly explain usage outside of your monthly allowance and how it will be charged for. This is the fundamental reason that we disagree with your view.

        I am not a legal expert and neither does consumer law state that I should be, instead it makes clear that the burden of communicating contractual facts falls with the vendor, it’s not an unreasonable expectation for Virgin to have told or directed me to the definition of the term ‘fixed’ as it is a key service the contract will deliver.

        Assuming that the terms and conditions of a contract are read and understood is not sufficient evidence of agreement of the contract. It falls to you the vendor to ensure that all contractual terms are understood prior to use of a product or service.

        Virgin should not have allowed me to use the product until they had received a signed agreement of their terms and conditions.

        What I require to resolve this dispute is a full refund of the disputed monies removed from my account without my express permission. I will continue to lawfully with hold payment until such time as our dispute is resolved.

        I look forward to your response once you have consulted with your ‘wandering’ legal section and without being disrespectful may I request that we continue to discuss this issue in writing over email.

        Yours Sincerely
        My strategy is to beat them up over the term 'fixed' which is not explained before you take out the contract

        Depending on their response to said I'm may throw in the Fraud Act.

        1.Fraud by false representation

        b.A representation is false if -
        i.It is untrue or misleading, and
        ii.The person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.

        c."Representation" means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of –
        i.The person making the representation, or
        ii.Any other person.

        d.A representation may be express or implied.

        e.For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).
        So far they are being reasonable and so am I.
        Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

        Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity. (Motto of the Kings of Scotland)

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: Virgin are getting on my last nerve

          Just one small point Frisp my friend, they could argue the point that the 664 guidance only come into play

          1.8 Our guidance does not relate to the routine collection of repayments. It applies to
          the collection of debt once an account is in default
          . This guidance does not
          therefore affect the ability of traders who deal in home collection of repayments to
          visit their customers as those payments fall due.
          A small point but one worth noting.


          p.s. as a side note regarding your other thread re- CRA's etc if you have not already seen I have had some success against my Yorkshire Bank "spurious" default entry

          Yorkshire Bank v Tools
          Any opinions I give are my own. Any advice I give is without liability. If you are unsure, please seek qualified legal advice.

          IF WE HAVE HELPED YOU PLEASE CONSIDER UPGRADING TO VIP - click here

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Virgin are getting on my last nerve

            Thanks for that Tools, I wasn't aware of 1.8, I don't think it too important as the principles could be argued for both cases. I wonder why the OFT decided not to include 'pre default' disputes.

            Thanks for your link, I'll chk it out
            Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

            Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity. (Motto of the Kings of Scotland)

            Comment

            View our Terms and Conditions

            LegalBeagles Group uses cookies to enhance your browsing experience and to create a secure and effective website. By using this website, you are consenting to such use.To find out more and learn how to manage cookies please read our Cookie and Privacy Policy.

            If you would like to opt in, or out, of receiving news and marketing from LegalBeagles Group Ltd you can amend your settings at any time here.


            If you would like to cancel your registration please Contact Us. We will delete your user details on request, however, any previously posted user content will remain on the site with your username removed and 'Guest' inserted.
            Working...
            X