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Thread: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

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  1. #1
    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Dear all

    I bought my parents' council house in the North with them in the 1980s as I was worried they would have to move out as there was only two of them in a 2.5 bed house and they'd lived there for 30 years! My mother died leaving myself and my father as joint owners. My father developed vascular dementia and went into a care home. I maintained he had a medical condition and was therefore entitled to NHS Continuing Care. The Health Authority disagreed obviously and took all his money and decided the shortfall should be paid by me!
    The Health Authority was aware of my address some 200 miles away and after filling in numerous forms were well aware that my mother was no longer alive and that my father was in a care home, yet they instructed the Land Registry to put a charge against the house and three letters were sent to the house, one addressed to me [living 200 miles away] one addressed to my father [living in the care home] and one addressed to my mother [who had died some years previously]. The house had been rented out and the tenants didn't alert us to the mail until a month had passed by which time our objections couldn't be registered. So

    1] was it legal of the Health Authority and Land Registry to act in this way - given I wasn't given the opportunity to object?
    2] can a charging order be put on a property without a court order?
    3] are there any time restrictions on such a charge?

    I have had to rent out the property [very reluctant landlord] as unable to sell because of this charging order and the case still rumbling on with the Health Authority [since 2007].

    Yes I know the NHS needs funding but a lot of that is down to bad management and to put this into perspective my Father served in WII and worked down the mines all his life, never claimed anything from anyone, saved up to buy his house in his later years [only possible as I bought it with him and Mum] and both of them scrimped and saved. Then at the end of his life after paying all his dues the Health Authority abandoned him. As an ex miner he was also entitled to a quarterly delivery of coal, the Health Authority worked out how much that came to and added that to his list of assets and decreed how much contribution he would need to make. I think he was left with about £10 per week for 'personal' spending money! The whole thing is a disgrace.

    If anyone can offer any advice it would be very gratefully received. I paid an 'advocate' £500 some years ago to deal with the Health Authority on my behalf as working full time, with children and having to drive up North most weekends was exhausting. This person promised to deal with the matter but sent only two emails on my behalf and didn't resolve the issue.

    Thanks

    Toni

  2. #2
    wales01man's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Who owns the house your deceased parents or you or all of you its the deeds showing ownership the HA see

  3. #3
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    The letters received at the property were notifications of an interim charge applied by the health authority, sent by the Land Registry ?

    They would only sent letters to the property address and to the registered owners of the property. It sounds like when your Mum died she remained on the Land Registry deeds and her ownership wasn't formally transferred to your father and the LR weren't informed of her death. Have you checked on the Land Registry whether you are tenants in common or joint tenants would also make a difference. You can also see what the charge is that is on the property.

    If tenants in common then the charge will only be over your parent/s share of the property, however if you're joint tenants the charge would be over the property as a whole.

    https://eservices.landregistry.gov.u...285.1501684179
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

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    MIKE770's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    £10 personal allowance a week has been the figure which I came across long time ago when a daughter was in care home in coma, all income is split so you are left with £10 personal allowance ( the nursing home held onto that as well and refused to refund when she died (we paid for personal items ouselves) the system stinks) like the operators who administer the system to their own advantage and gross misconduct on their incomes (Personal)

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    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by wales01man View Post
    Who owns the house your deceased parents or you or all of you its the deeds showing ownership the HA see
    Thanks for your response. I bought the house with my parents - we were all joint tenants. They wouldn't have got the mortgage on their own due to age etc.

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    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    The letters received at the property were notifications of an interim charge applied by the health authority, sent by the Land Registry ?

    They would only sent letters to the property address and to the registered owners of the property. It sounds like when your Mum died she remained on the Land Registry deeds and her ownership wasn't formally transferred to your father and the LR weren't informed of her death. Have you checked on the Land Registry whether you are tenants in common or joint tenants would also make a difference. You can also see what the charge is that is on the property.

    If tenants in common then the charge will only be over your parent/s share of the property, however if you're joint tenants the charge would be over the property as a whole.

    https://eservices.landregistry.gov.u...285.1501684179
    Hi Amethyst - thanks for your response. Yes we were all joint tenants. Hadn't realised we had to notify the LR. I was just annoyed that the Health Authority were well aware that my father was in the care home, my mother deceased and I lived miles away and would have thought this would have been passed on to the LR so they could send their notices to the appropriate address. When I rang LR I was outside the timescale for objection and they wouldn't accept my point that I hadn't received the notice. Nor did the HA say they were going to put a charge on the property. Not sure even if I had made the objection in time whether it would have held any sway but feel annoyed I wasn't given the opportunity. Thanks for the link and response.

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    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKE770 View Post
    £10 personal allowance a week has been the figure which I came across long time ago when a daughter was in care home in coma, all income is split so you are left with £10 personal allowance ( the nursing home held onto that as well and refused to refund when she died (we paid for personal items ouselves) the system stinks) like the operators who administer the system to their own advantage and gross misconduct on their incomes (Personal)
    Thanks Mike - sorry to hear about your daughter - must have been very traumatic for you and not helped by all the bureaucracy. I agree the whole system stinks - people who work hard all their lives and don't claim anything and then buy a very modest home are penalised, yet there is so much waste everywhere else.

  8. #8
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Go on the LR website and get the deeds so you know the exact position with the ownership of the property and the charge over it.


    Was this like the letter you got from the land registry ?

    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

  9. #9
    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Hi Amethyst

    That looks vaguely familiar. I will delve into the paperwork and check and also log on to LR to check the position.

    I know that when I queried it with the LR they told me I had virtually no chance of objecting. And I've just found this on t'internet! Thanks


    Dear Simon,
    I have now received an update and can confirm that for the last 10 years there have been no successful objections to the registration of a Form K (charging order) restriction.
    Regards,
    Pascal Lalande
    Central Operations Group
    Land Registry
    [email address]
    Direct dial: 0300 006 7428
    GTN: 7 2020 67428

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    Go on the LR website and get the deeds so you know the exact position with the ownership of the property and the charge over it.


    Was this like the letter you got from the land registry ?


  10. #10
    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Hi Amethyst

    I've downloaded a copy of the LR - below is [if I can get it posted up] is the wording [with all names removed].

    I can't remember how much they say I owe as it has been so long and as I say - at the end of my tether - I stumped up £500 to pay this 'expert' from a continuing care website to act as my advocate and he wrote two very short emails to the Primary Care Trust and that was it - since then despite efforts to speak to him - I've got nowhere. I wasn't aware of this website at the time otherwise.....

    B: Proprietorship Register
    This register specifies the class of title and
    identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
    affect the right of disposal.
    Title absolute

    1. 1 (00.00.1982) PROPRIETOR: FATHER, MOTHER, and
      ME
      of XX First Line Address, Second Line Address, Town, County, Postcode.
    2. 2 (00.00.2007) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to
      be completed by registration without a certificate signed by the
      applicant or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was
      given to NAME OF TOWN Council at FULL ADDRESS, POSTCODE, being the person with the benefit of a
      Charge under Section 22 of the Health and Social Services and Social
      Security Adjudications Act 1983.

    C: Charges Register
    This register contains any charges and other matters
    that affect the land.
    1 A Transfer of the land in this title dated DD MONTH 1982 made between
    (1) NAME OF TOWN Council and (2) FATHER, MOTHER,
    and ME
    contains restrictive covenants.
    NOTE: Original filed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    Go on the LR website and get the deeds so you know the exact position with the ownership of the property and the charge over it.


    Was this like the letter you got from the land registry ?


  11. #11
    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Yes looks familiar and I went on the LR site and there is a charge against the property. Wording below. Is there a time limitation on this or does it stay on forever?
    Thanks.

    B: Proprietorship Register
    This register specifies the class of title and
    identifies the owner. It contains any entries that
    affect the right of disposal.
    Title absolute


    1. 1 (00.00.1982) PROPRIETOR: FATHER, MOTHER, and
      ME
      of XX First Line Address, Second Line Address, Town, County, Postcode.
    2. 2 (00.00.2007) RESTRICTION: No disposition of the registered estate is to
      be completed by registration without a certificate signed by the
      applicant or his conveyancer that written notice of the disposition was
      given to NAME OF TOWN Council at FULL ADDRESS, POSTCODE, being the person with the benefit of a
      Charge under Section 22 of the Health and Social Services and Social
      Security Adjudications Act 1983.


    C: Charges Register
    This register contains any charges and other matters
    that affect the land.
    1 A Transfer of the land in this title dated DD MONTH 1982 made between
    (1) NAME OF TOWN Council and (2) FATHER, MOTHER,
    and ME
    contains restrictive covenants.
    NOTE: Original filed.

  12. #12
    Peridot's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Hi blue blue boy,
    I appreciate how frustrating this is and it is unfortunate that the 3 of you didn’t own specific shares in the property ie tenants in common. It wouldn’t prevent the LA taking your fathers share into consideration when calculating the assistance he should or shouldn’t receive, but they would only be able to use his specific share. Sorry I know this doesn’t help you now as with the joint tenancy you all own the property equally so the whole value can be included in the calculation.
    The charge will remain until it is paid and the LA agree to its removal.
    There is nothing preventing the sale. Having the restriction on the title just ensures that if or when the property is sold the LA receive the sum they have calculated due to them.
    I think you need to get some face to face advice on this as while the sum they allege is due to them remains outstanding, there is also interest accruing.
    It may be worth getting an appointment with a private client specialist lawyer who is also a member of Solicitors for the Elderly or specialises in care fees, to try and at least get to the bottom of how the LA has calculated what is due. You may be able to get a free half hour or a reduced fee appointment to explain what your options are.
    It is a sad situation but one that is going to affect more and more of us, we are all living longer and technology has advanced so far we are able to survive diseases and infections we never would have in the past. In additions families are spread about with most adults having to work so there is no extended family living together and looking after the elders in the home. Not through anyone’s fault it is just the situation these days.
    It is hard to swallow when you have worked hard all your life in the hope of leaving something of benefit for your children for example, but those days are gone I suspect, unless there is another way found to fund long term care in these situations.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Hi Peridot
    Thanks for your response. The raison d'être of buying my parents' council house was so that they wouldn't be forced to move out of the home they'd lived in for over 30 years once their offspring had fled the nest and I didn't look too closely into the options of joint tenancy or tenants in common - that's youth for you! It was very frustrating that the HA put a charge against the house at a time when they were aware my father was in the care home and I lived 200 miles away and my Mother had long since passed away. At the time therefore the house was jointly owned by myself and my Father and his 50% was valued just slightly over the £21k limit [or whatever it was then]. They didn't take into consideration the fact that I had put lots of money into the house [installed double glazing, central heating, etc. and converted downstairs when my Mother became disabled]. If they had then it would have been a different story. Indeed had I not upgraded everything a few years earlier - the house's value would have been considerably less and my Father's 50% would have been valued at less than the cut off point!
    I will have to look into getting some professional advice as you say - [paid the NHS Continuing Care website guy £500 to act as my advocate and he wrote two emails and that was it - so have been wary ever since]. My Father passed away some ten years ago and the last I heard from the HA was about 8 years ago I think. I will have to get my head out of the sand and resurrect all the paperwork when I have some time off over Christmas and tackle this afresh. All very draining.
    Thank you for the advice.

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    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by blueblueboy View Post
    paid the NHS Continuing Care website guy £500 to act as my advocate and he wrote two emails and that was it - so have been wary ever since.
    Could you give us a bit more information about this - which website was it that you used ? ( https://www.continuing-healthcare.co.uk/ ?? ) Was this recently or when you were trying to sort out funding originally ?
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

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    Peridot's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Hi again,
    Unfortunately unless you had a deed of trust indicating the shares each of you held in the property, there is little that can be done. Do bite the bullet and seek proper advice, there may be options or at least avenues to pursue.
    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

  16. #16
    blueblueboy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Amethyst View Post
    Could you give us a bit more information about this - which website was it that you used ? ( https://www.continuing-healthcare.co.uk/ ?? ) Was this recently or when you were trying to sort out funding originally ?
    Hi Amethyst
    It was Free Nursing Care - the old site was closed down [and new admins took over as there was concern about the previous admin offering to act as an advocate and charging people £500 - and then not doing anything to progress the case - so it seems I wasn't the only one! ] and all the users were migrated to a new platform in Feb this year.

    I've posted a message but it seems as though no-one is monitoring the site now.

    Thanks

  17. #17
    Amethyst's Avatar

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    Default Re: Charging Order on property made by Health Authority: Care Home Fees

    Quote Originally Posted by blueblueboy View Post
    Hi Amethyst
    It was Free Nursing Care - the old site was closed down [and new admins took over as there was concern about the previous admin offering to act as an advocate and charging people £500 - and then not doing anything to progress the case - so it seems I wasn't the only one! ] and all the users were migrated to a new platform in Feb this year.

    I've posted a message but it seems as though no-one is monitoring the site now.

    Thanks
    Blimey. Quick investigate and thats a big can of worms. Can you pm me with some more details, who you paid the £500 to, how, what for, and so on, and we'll keep it separate from this thread about your actual issues, which are of course far more important, but I hate people being ripped off when they are looking for help.
    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any advice I provide is given without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

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