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  1. #1
    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I need advice @R0b

    I bought a Fiat Panda for my wife three years ago and came to the point where the car was no longer needed by her so we VT'd it. BCA came along and inspected the car and noted a three minor (3mm dents) door impacts on the boot corner and front of the car and the rear passenger door had a line in it where the door had warped (which did confuse the inspection as they were flummoxed as to what had happened) The BCA rep noted a repair bill of well into £600, this included refit numberplate that fell off but they want to charge me £25 to stick it back on (the plate was with the car on collection) plus £45 valeting and £45 decal removal which ironically the decals were actually fitted by Rockingham Cars Fiat! All in all they are wanting £998 including excess mileage. I never signed the inspection document as I completely opposed the level of charges for minor cosmetic damage that would not have detracted from the value of the vehicle, I checked the Parkers guide on that one.

    My biggest issue is that the car was VT'd back in May/June and it took them nearly 6 weeks to inspect/collect the vehicle and since collection I heard nothing from them. I can guarantee they've sold the car so where do I stand refusing to pay this extortionate invoice bearing in mind the repairs they are quoting probably were never done and also are based solely on the inspected fees that were told to me by the BCA Rep. My argument is that for starters the only things I would agree to pay are the wheel trim and a broken parcel shelf. The decals were fitted by Fiat so why should I pay for something to be removed that Fiat fitted, plus the excess mileage thing I don't understand especially as I asked for 10,000 miles when I bought it but the paperwork was written up for 8,000 miles. On top of that we were also told we could upgrade the car to another Panda and it would come in less but when I actually went to do this they wanted £20 pcm more for the same model. This was not what I was told on purchase. When FCA wanted the car collected they wanted to charge a collection fee but I refused and they agreed to collect for free. The car itself had been sat for weeks on my lawn awaiting collection it has been a nightmare but for it to take them nearly 5 months to tell me I owe them money surely they can't get away with that?

    I am minded to ask where the car is so I can get it independently assessed, a copy of the repair invoice and photographs of the inspected damage and repair by BCA. If they sold it surely they can't enforce a bill against me for a contract the ceased five months ago
    Last edited by Robster5679; 20th November 2017 at 17:52:PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I want to add that I VT'd the car and was over the 50% as I owed nothing on the vehicle as I had met the 50% threshold by two months

  3. #3
    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I have found my old car. It has been sold to a trader since it was VT'd and still has the damaged wheel trim and the rear parcel shelf still looks broken. Car is on for sale in Luton which is over 90 miles away from where the finance company took it to. The only apparent thing they've done looks like remove the decals and restick on the reg plate. Now what do I do?

  4. #4
    R0b's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Hello,

    What do you want to do? Your not in any special position compared to anyone else on here so I would suggest having a read around the forum for these types of questions as they crop up almost on a daily basis. Excess mileage is well covered on this forum and charges for failing to take reasonable care is subjective so only you can decide what you would be willing to pay or not. Other factors also include whether the car was brand new or second hand and whether you took pictures of the car prior to handing it over.
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


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    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I was advised to come here, but your response comes across like a telling off. I haven't a clue where I stand and after five months of no communication they drop this on me. They've sold the car and the only thing they've done is remove decals and valet it. I realise that I'm probably not in a special position but expected a more warmer response than that.

  6. #6
    R0b's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I apologise if it comes across as rude there was no intention of that. Damage to a vehicle is subjective so what you or I may think will differ from someone else so you need to think realistically as to what damage you may have caused by you and if it falls outside of the reasonable wear and tear. That being said, lenders are not entitled to "betterment" and this is generally common for cars that were already second hand and there is some damage already to the vehicle before you came into possession of it. If the car already had several scratches or dents, then it cannot look to you for recovery of costs for that particular damage - you are only liable for any additional damage you have caused.

    Take a look at the link below which gives you a fuller understanding of voluntary termination.

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/show...on-Your-rights
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Hi @R0b

    I bought the car from new and found the car has been sold by the finance company to a car dealer down the road from me. The dings are easily fair wear and tear and the vehicle is described as very good condition. The vehicle is being sold for £3700 which is market value for A class condition. I have drafted a letter from your page and I am satisfied they have no claim against me for the mileage, but how do they sit charging me out against a car that I haven't signed as in agreement with the inspection and their claim for refund for work that hasn't been carried out?
    Last edited by Amethyst; 21st November 2017 at 12:47:PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    how do they sit charging me out against a car that I haven't signed as in agreement with the inspection and their claim for refund for work that hasn't been carried out?
    There will be something in the contract that says they will inspect the vehicle in accordance with industry guidelines (usually BVRLA) and that you are liable to pay for damages based on that inspection. However, when you terminate liability is restricted to 50% of the total amount payable under the agreement and excludes damages for breach of the agreement or compensation.

    They will then look to rely on section 100(4) which is concerned with the issue of whether you have been negligent in looking after the car. So they must prove on balance of probabilities that the damage was not there at the time it was in your possession and that you were negligent by either causing it or allowing it to happen and then not remedying the problem.

    Certainly the decal removal and number plate you could argue as not being liable based on what you've said and if you are happy to pay for some of it then there is a template letter with some suggestive wording that you could use. Again, the issue is entirely subjective and although lenders will use the BVRLA guidelines to carry out the inspection, my single biggest criticism is that those guidelines do not take into account the age of the car and over time, it will degrade and is likely to have far more minor issues with it by year 4 or 5 than it would if it was brand new - that's why I put the CAP HPI Conditions table in the VT Guide which factors in the age of the car.

    So in short, they don't need your approval because they will say you were negligent in taking reasonable care under section 100(4).
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


  9. #9
    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Luckily enough I have the timeline from VT including my photos I took of the vehicle in June. I sent a second notice of VT on 14th July and the car was eventually inspected and collected on 8th August. I refused to sign the inspection report as I disputed the evaluation based on the point that the damage was so minimal the inspector had no success in evidencing the damage alleged by photograph.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On CAP it would come out Cap Clean and is currently on sale in Luton for £3700

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    There's no right or wrong answer as to what guidelines should be used - Lenders will argue BVRLA because it favours them the most whereas hirers would want to use the CAP guidelines. If the matter ended up in court it would be who could persuade the judge the most. The BVRLA guidelines are a contractual term (which could be applied if you completed the agreement but decided to return the car instead of paying the balloon payment or VT) and arguably lenders can't rely on that clause because it would fall under the excluded category of damages for breach or compensation whereas section 100(4) does not impose any industry standard. On the other hand a judge might be persuaded by the fact that the CAP guidelines do factor in the age of the car but may also reject that argument and instead say the BVRLA is incorporated into the contract as a term despite whatever section 100 says on limited liability.

    Combining the CAP guidelines with the vehicle currently on sale at £3,700 (maybe take a screenshot/printout of it once it has been sold) could be evidence that the car was in a reasonable condition on it's return and the lender simply failed to mitigate their loss by selling at auction (attracting the lowest possible price) as opposed to alternative means such as selling at a dealership or privately.

    Ultimately this will be a game of ping pong correspondence but you do need to be aware some lenders might apply a default to your credit file as a way of pressuring you into paying up. I would say that's a breach of data protection in failing to keep data up to date and accurate but whether you would want to instigate court proceedings in that instance is a decision for you to make.
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


  11. #11
    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Its there any value in charging them storage? It amounts to 54 day I had the car on my drive which I couldn't use

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Bit late for that now, you should have given them notice of this when you still had the car. A court would not retrospectively allow recovery of storage fees when it wasn't in the contemplation of the parties at the time and especially so if you never made the lender aware that would be your intention if they failed to collect in a reasonable time.
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    Okay so stick to the arguments around condition and mileage and request a copy of their photographic evidence of damage. Do I hit them straight away with the vehicles current sale status or use that for any return letter?

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    R0b's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    I think full and frank disclosure should be sufficient, there's no real point in drip feeding the information you have already in your possession as it doesn't really assist either side.

    However, it is up to you as to what tactics you want to use.
    DISCLAIMER: ANY CONTENT I POST IS INTENDED FOR EDUCATIONAL AND INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT A REPLACEMENT OR SUBSTITUTION FOR LEGAL ADVICE. I MAKE NO REPRESENTATIONS AS TO THE ACCURACY OF MY POSTS NOR DO I ASSUME ANY RESPONSIBILITY. USE OF ANY CONTENT IS SOLELY AT YOUR OWN RISK AND COST AND I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY. YOU SHOULD SEEK INDEPENDENT LEGAL ADVICE BY GOING TO Law Society's Find A Solicitor OR CONTACT YOUR LOCAL Citizen's Advice Bureau.


  15. #15
    Robster5679's Avatar

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    Default Re: Voluntary Termination FCA Automotive Fiat

    So hit them with the auto trader evidence as well in the same letter

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