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  1. #1
    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    I have received a county court claim form N1, as a result of a claim submitted by Gladstones solicitors on behalf of Parking Control Management and would appreciate any guidance.

    The situation can be summarised as follows:

    The car in question is registered to me and at the time of the alleged offence was on loan to my son.
    My son was a tenant of the flats and had permission to park in that car park

    A valid parking permit was displayed on the dashboard and can be seen in the photograph taken by PCM. However, from the front, it was partially obscured by the shading of the windscreen, However the valid date is clearly visible.

    I have written to PCM appealing the PCN but they are having none of it and have issued a county court claim form. I have acknowledged the form and stated that I will be submitting a defence.

    My proposed defence is based on 3 items

    1. The parking spaces are only 2.1m wide, vs a recommended minimum of 2.4 m, ( Government planning portal , Parking standards) so can not be considered to be true parking space within the meaning of the law.
    2. A valid permit was displayed and can be seen in the photo submitted by PCM. It is possible that, had the employee been able to look in the side window then they would have been able to see the whole permit. However if another vehicle was parked in the adjacent space, it may have been difficult for them to get access, due to the narrow space. However that’s not under my control.
    3. The penalty is not a genuine pre estimate of loss. The car that was parked in that space was the one which was entitled to park there, and therefore no loss was incurred by anyone.

    In my defence I will also ask for disclosure of all documents held by them, including proof of right of authority to issue parking charges

    How does that sound ? Do I have a leg to stand on ? Thanks in advance for any guidance.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PCN Photo 1.PNG  

  2. #2
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Pre estimate of loss is a no no after the Beavis case. What does your son's lease say about parking? Does it say permits are required, does it say there is acharge if you do not?

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    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    Pre estimate of loss is a no no after the Beavis case. What does your son's lease say about parking? Does it say permits are required, does it say there is acharge if you do not?
    Hi Ostell
    Unfortunately , although the flat was advertised as "with parking" the lease didn't specifically say anything about a right to parking.
    The parking control was only introduced part way through his tenancy and at that stage he was issued with a parking permit.

    Wouldn't the fact that he was issued with a parking permit demonstrate that he was permitted to park there ?

    What is your thought on the partial display of the permit ?

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    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Have you guys acknowledged the court claim yet?

    Did you receive a letter before claim & if so, when?
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Hi Charityynjw
    Yes, I have acknowledged the claim within the 14 days period .
    I have received a series of letters prior to the claim.
    11 May Parking Charge, Notice to keeper
    14 June Parking charge keeper liability
    18 July Trace debt recovery, demand for outstanding payment
    Up until that point i had ignored their letters thinking they wer just trying to intimidate me into paying.
    At this stage I responded to PCM appealing against the PCN
    They responded that they were unable to process my appeal as it was with an external debt collection agency
    7 Aug Trace debt recovery , final demand
    5 Sept Gladstones. Pay now to avoid legal action
    26 Sept Letter before claim
    13 Oct. Notice of claim from County Court business centre
    20 Oct I acknowledged service and gave notice I will submit defence.
    This has to be done by 15 Nov

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    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Hi Ostell
    I've just spent some time going through the Beavis case.
    If I understod correctly this was about motorist who overstayed their permitted time. It was ruled that the charge was not a "penalty" and was commercially justifiable as it served to deter other motorists from outstaying their time.
    In my case the parked car was parked with the landholders permission .The driver had been issued with a permit confiring that permission and this was displayed on the dash. Can I argue that the charge is therefore some kind of penalty because the permit was partially obscured ? Therefore it is a penalty, and is subject to the rules regarding penalties, including GPEOL

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Beavis does not apply in a residential situation as there is no necessity to maintain a turnover of cars. What does you lease say about parking, have you got your own allocated space defined in your lease?

    Assuming you have the space in your lease the permit, which you are not required to display, is displayed as a courtesy to aid the operatives in identifying strangers.

    Can you post relevant portion of your lease and the signs in the car park.

    You could be going after PCM for £500 for a breach of the DPA.

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Could you also post up the original postal Notice to Keeper, front & rear, obscure personal details but leave all times & dates visible?

    & for clarity, was there a winscreen PCN?
    If so, post that up as well.
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    That's good information that Beavis doesn't apply in a residential situation.Thank you. I can use that in my defence response. My son has since moved out and hasn't kept a copy of his lease. I've asked him to try to get one from the managing agents. He insists it doesn't say anything about parking specifically, but i'd like to see it. As a minimum I'm hoping it will say something about right to access communal areas, in which case I'll try to argue that the associated parking is part of the communal area.

    What is the potential breach of DPA ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Im currently away from home but I will scan and post the original notice on my return.

  10. #10
    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    For a brach of the DPA they are chasing him for parking when they knew they did not have the right to obtain his data from the DVLA as he was in his own space and a permit on display.

  11. #11
    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    As requested, Attached is the original Notice to keeper front and rear.
    I've now got a copy of the lease but have problems redacting it to post. I can confirm that it says nothing about parking. it's a long list of things the tenant must and must not do, with remarkably few obligations on the landlord. However the managing agent is being helpful and has said that they are willing to provide a letter on their headed paper confirming that the tenant had a right to park in the adjoining car park. I may take that up if this case does go to court. In which case I'd appreciate guidance on what wording I should ask for.

    For clarity, the car park in question is a multi storey car park situated behind the property. Some bays are allocated for use by residents of that block of flats. However specific bays are not allocated to specific flats. My son was parked in one of the bays allocated to his block. PCM's argument seems to be that the permit was not clearly displayed. You can see from my initial post that the permit is displayed although partially obscured by the tinting of the windscreen.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails PCM Notice to keeper, rear.jpg   PCM Notice to keeper, redacted v2.jpg  
    Last edited by Hollean; 13th November 2017 at 14:45:PM. Reason: redacting attachment

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollean View Post
    As requested, Attached is the original Notice to keeper front and rear.
    I've now got a copy of the lease but have problems redacting it to post. I can confirm that it says nothing about parking. it's a long list of things the tenant must and must not do, with remarkably few obligations on the landlord. However the managing agent is being helpful and has said that they are willing to provide a letter on their headed paper confirming that the tenant had a right to park in the adjoining car park. I may take that up if this case does go to court. In which case I'd appreciate guidance on what wording I should ask for.

    For clarity, the car park in question is a multi storey car park situated behind the property. Some bays are allocated for use by residents of that block of flats. However specific bays are not allocated to specific flats. My son was parked in one of the bays allocated to his block. PCM's argument seems to be that the permit was not clearly displayed. You can see from my initial post that the permit is displayed although partially obscured by the tinting of the windscreen.
    FYI - your full name is still clear in the body of the letter, along with the location of the alleged offence. Worth obscuring and reposting

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Quote Originally Posted by OliverJames View Post
    FYI - your full name is still clear in the body of the letter, along with the location of the alleged offence. Worth obscuring and reposting
    sorted xx
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Thanks Kati.

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    The NTK does not really comply with POFA .
    It states that you are required to pay or name the driver. The word should be invite. 8 (2) (e) There is no required in at all.

    8 (2) starts with the word "must"
    Paragraph 8 (2) (f) has not been given in the form required in POFA
    There is no period of parking stated 8 (2) (a)
    There is no creditor identified 8 (2) (h)

    I think, in the first instance, a letter to them saying that there can be no keeper liability as the have failed to meet several of the requirements of POFA 2012 that are defined in paragraph 8 (2) of the act.

    Does the NTK have the same information as the NTD?

    Other items, such as the permit was visible, if they could have been bothered to look properly,

    What does the lease say about parking? Does it identify the parking spaces and does it state a permit must be displayed and a charge must be paid if not?

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    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Hi Ostell
    Thank you for your comments. I do feel that PCM are using their position to intimidate lay people like myself like me into paying and it is much appreciated to have the informed support of you and your colleagues to help redress that balance.
    I have today posted my defence N9B as the deadline is this wednesday and it seemed prudent to allow an extra day just in case , so it is too late to add the points about NTK being non-compliant. I have asked for them to disclose all relevant material including, but not limited to
    - proof of their claims
    - Proof of right of authority
    - genuine pre estimate of loss ( I've used to arguments from this forum to show why Beavis does not apply in this situation.)

    I have requested an opportunity to amend my case when they do provide additional documentation

    Should I keep the matter of non compliance of the NTK until that point in time or would it be good to write to Gladstones pointing out the non compliance at this point , in the hope that they will withdraw ?

    As I have said in another post the lease says nothing at all about parking. However the managing agents have said that they are willing to provide a letter which confirms that by virtue of his tenancy my son has the right to park in those spaces. At the time he took out the lease there was no control over parking and it was only midway through the term that parking control was introduced and the residents were issued with permits. however the lease was never updated to include that, which is unfortunate. I'll get a letter from them if this case ever does go to court.

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Shame you didn't get it in first as with non compliance there is no case and any action is vexatious.

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Yeah. You are right. Initially I just thought they would blow a lot of wind and then go away if I didn't cough up easily, so i ignored them. In hindsight , should have got advice from you guys and nipped it all in he bud earlier.

    Is it an option to go online and add non complaince of NTK to my defence ? I could do that tomorrow and still meet the deadline .

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    If your defence has only just been filed, email the court & respecfully request that the lease issue is added to your defence.

    [email protected]

    Put '[Parking co name per court claim form] v [you] Court claim no [XXXXXXXX] Addition to filed defence' in subject box.
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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Thanks for the advice. I'm proposing to email the court and ask that the issue of non compliant notice to keeper be added to my defence. Here's the proposed text. I'd appreciate any suggested amendments

    The Notice to keeper (NTK) sent to me on 11 May 2017 does not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, SCHEDULE 4, Recovery of unpaid parking charges.

    Paragraph 8(2) of PoFA states the notice must;

    (a)specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;

    No period of parking is specified on the NTK


    (e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
    The NTK does not invite, it states that I am now required, which is not the wording required by PoFA

    (f) warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—
    (i)the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph (c) or (d)) has not been paid in full, and
    (ii)the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver, the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

    The NTK is not in this form


    (h)identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;

    The NTK does give instructions for payment but does not identify the creditor


    Since PCM have failed to meet several requirements of the PoFA 2012 as defined in section 8(2) there can be no keeper liability. The claim has no basis and I invite the court to strike it out.

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    ostell's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Where it says "required" this is a misstatement of their authority and implying non existent legal requirements on the defendant.

  22. #22
    Hollean's Avatar

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Excellent. I'll add that in.
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    Where it says "required" this is a misstatement of their authority and implying non existent legal requirements on the defendant.

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    Having submitted my defence, I have now received a letter from Gladstones saying
    a) They have notified the court of their clients intention to proceed
    b) They have elected not to mediate
    c) A copy of the completed directions questionnaire is enclosed

    In fact what was enclosed was a totally blank N180 (Directions questionnaire) and a standard printed sheet request for special direction asking that the court sends the N159 form attached to the defendent (me) with a request that the case is heard on the papers alone

    Copies of both are attached.
    They didn't supply any of the additional documentation which I requested.

    This was followed 2 days later by a letter from the court with an N149, notice of proposed allocation to small claims court. This makes no mention of the request from Gladstones that it is heard "on the paper"


    Am i right in thnking that there is no extra charge to me in going to court ? If so that's what I would like to do so that I have an opportunity to plead my case in front of an impartial judge.

    As a reminder my case is
    - The charge is unjustified as my son had permission to park in that location. The permit was displayed and, although partially obscured, can be seen in the photo provided by the parking company.
    - Beavis does not apply as there is no commercial need to maintain a turnover of parking spaces in residential parking
    - Therfore they need to supply a GPOL.
    - There is no loss to anyone
    - The notice to keeper was non compliant as it didn't use the correct wording
    - The claim on a registered keeper can not exceed the original penalty, so all the add on costs are unjustified.

    In short I believe they are using intimidatory tactics to extract money to which they are not entitled.

    In which case I just fill in the N149 and ask that the case is heard in my local court.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Req special direction 6 Dec.jpg   Gladstones let 6 Dec redacted.jpg  

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    Default Re: Parking Control Management. Gladstones submitted Court Claim

    The one they have sent you is what they have sent to the court in response to the allocation to track they have received. When you complete your N180 you send it to the court and a copy to the claimant. If the court does then send you an N159 having considered the questionnaires you will have opportunity to complete a part on there to say that you do not agree it should be dealt with on papers and return that to the court ( copy to claimant ).
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