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  1. #1
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Hi, I have received a claim form from NHCC with the following particulars:

    Particulars of Claim :-
    ____ of the vehicle XX16XXX (the ‘Vehicle’) incurred the parking charge(s) on 10/01/2017 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at Wxxxxx Street Manchester. The Defendant was driving the Vehicle and/or is the Keeper of the Vehicle.

    AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS
    £160 for Parking Charges / Damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of £9.62 pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at 8% pa, continuing to judgement at £0.04 per day.

    The car park in question had a manned barrier entry, where a man sitting on a till would give you a ticket/receipt upon payment in cash. This ticket/receipt was partly hand written. The driver parked at the car park at 8pm and purchased 3 hours, however the driver was running late, the driver returned to the car park to purchase an extension before time ran out on the initial ticket. Upon returning to the car park the driver found the manned barrier entry closed with no one there able to assist. The driver looked around for a pay machine and found one, however it was not working at all. The driver then continued without paying and returned 30 minutes later to find a PCN on the windscreen.


    The driver appealed online but received no reply and now have this claim form to deal with.

    Any advice on how to deal with this would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you
    Last edited by sammy79; 1st October 2017 at 20:53:PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Hi

    First & foremost, have you acknowledged the court claim?
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
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    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Hi

    First & foremost, have you acknowledged the court claim?
    Hi, yes I sent the acknowledgement within the 14 days which allows me another 14 days to file a defence, of which I have 4 days left.

    Thank you

  4. #4
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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Ok Sammy

    In fact you have 33 days from the court claim issue date in which to file a defence. (An extra 5 days allowed for deemed delivery of the claim if via MCOL).

    Do you have the original PCN, the postal Notice to Keeper* & up-to-date pics of site signage?
    Is it a hire/lease vehicle?

    *This should have been received by the RK within 29-56 days of the parking incident (If it's not hire/lease).

    Btw, could you edit your first post....'The driver parked...', etc.
    Do not ID who was driving, even on forum posts!.
    (Or have you already done so in your communications/appeal)?
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  5. #5
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Do you have the original PCN - Yes I do

    the postal Notice to Keeper - Not the original no.

    & up-to-date pics of site signage - No, it's in Manchester (I live more than 100 miles away)

    Is it a hire/lease vehicle? - PCP.


    Btw, could you edit your first post....'The driver parked...', etc. - edited, thanks. I copied what the particulars stated in the letter.

    Thank you

  6. #6
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    From post #1

    The driver had parked at the car park at 8pm and purchased 3 hours, however as they were running late, they returned to the car park to purchase an extension before time ran out on the initial ticket. Upon returning to the car park the driver found the manned barrier entry closed with no one there able to assist. The driver looked around for a pay machine and found one, however it was not working at all. The driver then continued without paying and returned 30 minutes later to find a PCN on the windscreen.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  7. #7
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    From memory this site is either pay at kiosk or alternatively pay via ticket machine.
    No other payment methods available.
    Also, the site signage used to display BPA logos. (Well they did last May !)
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  8. #8
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Ok Sammy

    In fact you have 33 days from the court claim issue date in which to file a defence. (An extra 5 days allowed for deemed delivery of the claim if via MCOL).

    Do you have the original PCN, the postal Notice to Keeper* & up-to-date pics of site signage?
    Is it a hire/lease vehicle?

    *This should have been received by the RK within 29-56 days of the parking incident (If it's not hire/lease).

    Btw, could you edit your first post....'The driver parked...', etc.
    Do not ID who was driving, even on forum posts!.
    (Or have you already done so in your communications/appeal)?

    Sorry about that, edited!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Yes, I believe that is correct. The manned kiosk was however closed at the time of return which was around 10:45pm. The ticket machine was out of service.

    Not sure if it is BPA or not. Should I try to get some pictures of the signage at the car park?

    Thank you

  9. #9
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    SIP are now with IPC, not BPA.

    If you can get up-to-date signage pics it would help.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Do not ID who was driving, even on forum posts!.
    (Or have you already done so in your communications/appeal)?
    ####
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  10. #10
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    SIP are now with IPC, not BPA.

    If you can get up-to-date signage pics it would help.

    - - - Updated - - -



    ####
    Sorry, seemed to have missed that. Haven't ID'd anyone, not in the appeal either.

    I've tried to get pictures from the site, but have been unable to do so and it's a two hour drive to Manchester.

    Is there any other solution to this?

    What sort of defence could I make? The lighting in the carpark was poor, the signage was awful, the ticket machine was not working. How can something like this be allowed? Parking was paid for, time went over by 20 minutes. This is frustrating.

    Thank you
    Last edited by sammy79; 3rd October 2017 at 11:58:AM.

  11. #11
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    These are all the communications I've received prior to the country court claim.

    I have read on another post that they state just Walmer Street on the letters and ticket? Could this be used?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails glad1.jpg   SIP-lb2.jpg   SIP-Legalbeagles.jpg   glad2.jpg   glad3.jpg  

  12. #12
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    What is the 'date of sending this notice' on the 'Payment Overdue' letter? (The one with black header).
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  13. #13
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    The date on the black one is 04/04/2017

    Thank you

  14. #14
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Ok

    Can I just ask...are you (or were you at the time) the registered keeper on the DVLA database? (It is usually so with PCPs, but just dotting i's, etc)

    Oh, & the date of the red 'impending legal action' letter?
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  15. #15
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Ok

    Can I just ask...are you (or were you at the time) the registered keeper on the DVLA database? (It is usually so with PCPs, but just dotting i's, etc)

    Oh, & the date of the red 'impending legal action' letter?

    The driver is not/was not the registered keeper. date on red one 6/6/2017

    Thankyou

  16. #16
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    The driver is not/was not the registered keeper
    Not quite what I asked.
    are you (or were you at the time) the registered keeper on the DVLA database?
    There is no presumption in law that the RK is necessarily the driver (despite Gladstones' tosh about Elliot v Loake).

    The parking co normally obtains details via the DVLA database, which is usually for the RK.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  17. #17
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Not quite what I asked.


    There is no presumption in law that the RK is necessarily the driver (despite Gladstones' tosh about Elliot v Loake).

    The parking co normally obtains details via the DVLA database, which is usually for the RK.

    Sorry, yes I am the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    Thank you

  18. #18
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    The parking incident occurred on 10/01/2017.

    That notice (black header) seems to be the first postal notification.

    If so, & if they are pursuing the RK, it is out of time.....See post #4 & Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Sch 4 (8)(5).
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...dule/4/enacted

    If they are pursuing the driver, as stated there is no presumption that the RK & the driver are the same.
    The Elliot v Loake argument has failed* so many times it is a standing joke (though it might be an idea to show that other people do have access to & drive the vehicle, just in case.)

    *Loads of cases available to back this up if & when necessary.
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  19. #19
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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    If the first letter received is taken as a Notice to Keeper then, apart from it being too late, it fails to conform to the requirement of POFA in many respects to be able to hold the keeper liable, unless they are on the back. Here's POFA , you need to check paragraph 8 and see what is missing or incorrectly stated. For starters there is no warning to the keeper that they may be liable, 8 (2) (f). no invitation to name the driver 8 (2) (e) etc. Is the creditor actually identified 8 (2) (h).

    Elliot v Loake was a criminal case where there was forensic and other evidence that the keeper was indeed the driver. There was no assumption made.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by ostell View Post
    If the first letter received is taken as a Notice to Keeper then, apart from it being too late, it fails to conform to the requirement of POFA in many respects to be able to hold the keeper liable, unless they are on the back. Here's POFA , you need to check paragraph 8 and see what is missing or incorrectly stated. For starters there is no warning to the keeper that they may be liable, 8 (2) (f). no invitation to name the driver 8 (2) (e) etc. Is the creditor actually identified 8 (2) (h).

    Elliot v Loake was a criminal case where there was forensic and other evidence that the keeper was indeed the driver. There was no assumption made.
    Thank you very much for the information.

    So for the defence, I have found the following, will this suffice?


    1.
    The Defendant denies any liability whatsoever to the Claimant.

    2. A valid ticket was purchased by the driver to cover the duration of stay.

    3.
    If the Claimant is intending to pursue this claim against the Defendant on the basis that the Defendant is the registered keeper then the Claimant has failed to show that the conditions for recovering this charge under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 have been met. The Defendant disputes that any of the conditions necessary for a claim to be pursued against the keeper of the vehicle have been met.

    4.a)
    No evidence has been provided to show a valid Notice to Driver was given to the driver in accordance with Paragraph 7, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    4.b)
    Where a Notice to Driver was given no evidence has been provided to show that a valid Notice to Keeper was served in accordance with Paragraph 8, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    4.c)
    No evidence has been provided to show that the Creditor has made a valid application for keepers details in accordance with Paragraph 11, Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

    5.
    It is believed that the Claimant has no standing to bring this claim. The proper Claimant is the landowner. The claimant has failed to establish their legal right to bring a claim either as the landholder or the agent of the landholder. Strict proof is required that there is a chain of contracts leading from the landowner to AS Parking. The Defendant claims that the Claimant does not have the authority to issue charges on this land in their own name and that they have no locus standi to bring this case.


    6. If the driver on the date of the event was considered to be a trespasser if not allowed to park there, then only the landowner can pursue a case under the tort of trespass, not this Claimant, and as the Supreme Court in the ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, such a matter would be limited to the landowner themselves claiming for a nominal sum.


    7)
    The Claimant might argue that the Supreme Court’s decision is Parking Eye v. Beavis is applicable. The Defendant will argue that the present case meets none of the conditions that the Supreme Court stated were required for a parking notice to be exempt from the well-established principle that penalty charges cannot be recovered. The main difference is that the Supreme Court determined that, in a retail park, there was a public interest in ensuring a turnover of visitors that justified a disincentive to overstay. There is clearly no such interest in a third party attempting to impose conditions in an educational establishment where there is no turnover of visitors and the defendant’s vehicle was not in pay-and-display car parking.


    8.
    The Defendant also disputes that the Claimant has incurred £50 solicitor cost and interest. The Particulars of Claim are spectacularly deficient and woefully inadequate to show a cause of action.


    9.
    The Claimant has not complied with the pre-court protocol. The Particulars of Claim contains no details and fails to establish a cause of action which would enable the Defendant to prepare a specific defence. It just states “parking charges” which does not give any indication of on what basis the claim is brought. There is no information regarding why the charge arose, what the original charge was, what the alleged contract was nor anything which could be considered a fair exchange of information. The defendant therefore asks that the court orders the case to be struck out for want of a detailed course of action and/or for the claim as having no prospect of success.


    I believe the facts stated in this defence are true.


    Will this be sufficient?

    Thank you again for all your help.

  21. #21
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Para #2 might need some tweaking.

    From previous posts it would seem that there was a 20 min overstay?

    Btw, are there any witnesses (other than the driver) who would corroborate the machine malfunction?
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

  22. #22
    sammy79's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    Quote Originally Posted by charitynjw View Post
    Para #2 might need some tweaking.

    From previous posts it would seem that there was a 20 min overstay?

    Btw, are there any witnesses (other than the driver) who would corroborate the machine malfunction?

    Should I remove para 2 entirely?

    Yes there was a 20 minute overstay, however it was after the driver had returned to purchase additional time and found the machine not working.

    Yes there is an additional witness who can corroborate the machine not working.

    Thank you

  23. #23
    charitynjw's Avatar

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    Default Re: County Court Claim; SIP Gladstones Manchester car park

    If it were me I'd say
    2. A valid ticket was purchased by the driver to cover the estimated duration of stay.
    Common sense, really.
    When purchasing a ticket, how can anyone know in advance whether something will occur which causes delay?

    & get a witness statement from the other person, supported by a signed statement of truth.

    It would be a reasonable scenario if, for instance, the driver & witness went to extend the period of parking, were prevented from doing so due to no fault of their own, then had to return to wherever they were visiting to retrieve hat, coats, bags etc (or whatever).
    CAVEAT LECTOR

    This is only my opinion - "
    Opinions are made to be changed --or how is truth to be got at?" (Byron)

    You and I do not see things as they are. We see things as we are.
    Cohen, Herb

    There is danger when a man throws his tongue into high gear before he
    gets his brain a-going.
    Phelps, C. C.

    "They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!"
    The last words of John Sedgwick

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