Council Tax

[Awol]

Good morning all...My partner father passed away 2008, her mum then lived on her own. My partner sold her house and moved abroad to work on a private yacht, which she still does full time. She decided to use her mums address for her mail to be sent to. her mums sends her mail, if it's important, to her wherever she is in the world. The council have now written to her mum and said she must pay full CT as her daughter lives there....which clearly she does not. her mum has been asked to pay back tax to 2008 (she is getting a 25% discount as she lives alone). The council say that if you live on the 'High seas' you cannot have an address. My partner does not live o the 'high seas', she is always close to land and will always have a way of getting mail, not always the same address! Any views would be most welcome please.

[ostell]

Re: Council Tax

Usual Council Jobsworth. Why did she not use your address for mail? Has your partner told them that she has another address and partner?
Why not get the council to fully explain what they have said to you, and include references to regulations and case law to prove their argument.

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

Hello Jack...I live with her on the boat. She sent them her employment contract, which they asked for. The extract from the reply is as follows: "...Sole/main residence is considered to be the address used whilst living and receiving correspondence in the United Kingdom. Due to your main address being your mothers property we consider her home to be your Sole/main residence..." They then gave us this. "....In Bradford MCC -v-v Anderson the High Court concluded:

• that a ship on the high seas could not be a sole or main residence;

• that time spent away from the home was but one factor to be considered in cases of disputed sole or main residence.

• that security of tenure to a dwelling was relevant;

She is registered as a 'non dom' with Inland Revenue ?? Thank you for your reply.

[charitynjw]

Re: Council Tax

Can't find it on Bailii

Tried
Bradford MCC -v-v Anderson
Bradford MCC -v- Anderson

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

Hello Jack not sure if I replied correctly so here it is again...I live with her on the boat. She sent them her employment contract, which they asked for. The extract from the reply is as follows: "...Sole/main residence is considered to be the address used whilst living and receiving correspondence in the United Kingdom. Due to your main address being your mothers property we consider her home to be your Sole/main residence..." They then gave us this. "....In Bradford MCC -v-v Anderson the High Court concluded:

• that a ship on the high seas could not be a sole or main residence;

• that time spent away from the home was but one factor to be considered in cases of disputed sole or main residence.

• that security of tenure to a dwelling was relevant;

She is registered as a 'non dom' with Inland Revenue ?? Thank you for your reply.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Council Tax

Never mind what some wig-wearing winker may have decided, take it to the LGO. (link)

[Eloise01]

Re: Council Tax

Hello Jack not sure if I replied correctly so here it is again...I live with her on the boat. She sent them her employment contract, which they asked for. The extract from the reply is as follows: "...Sole/main residence is considered to be the address used whilst living and receiving correspondence in the United Kingdom. Due to your main address being your mothers property we consider her home to be your Sole/main residence..." They then gave us this. "....In Bradford MCC -v-v Anderson the High Court concluded:

• that a ship on the high seas could not be a sole or main residence;

• that time spent away from the home was but one factor to be considered in cases of disputed sole or main residence.

• that security of tenure to a dwelling was relevant;

She is registered as a 'non dom' with Inland Revenue ?? Thank you for your reply.

I have a search running to find the case law - the reference here is definitely incorrect because, for starters, there are no "MCC's" - and if it is Bradford then it would have been MDC or MBC depending on the year of judgement - assuming it is Bradford at all.

However, I have run several searches and the principle quoted here appears, in fact, to be correct - you cannot be domiciled on a ship on the high seas - a person must either live in the country or not live in the country. Don't depend on HMRC categorisations as being relevant to other law - they often are not.

One other matter to consider which obviously hasn't occured to you yet is the potential consequences of actually not being domiciled in the UK. For starters you will fail the habitual residence test which means that if you return to the UK you will be expected to support yourself without any recourse to the public purse (i.e. no benefits and no housing support). Effectively, British or not, your will be treated as a "foreigner" and eligible for no support.

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

Thanks CleverCloggs will have a look at this option

[Eloise01]

Re: Council Tax

The relevant case law is CITY OF BRADFORD METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL v NEIL ANDERTON (1991)

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

Hi Eloise01...thank you for that, I also searched and could not find the case noted. Both she and I will not need (thankfully) any support from the public purse. The 'High seas' is not factually correct as we have not regularly been further than 1/2 miles offshore with 90% of the time in a marina or just off the marina. The 'High Sea' idea I think applies to crew on ships moving across seas from county to country...."The noun HIGH SEA has 1 sense:1. the open seas of the world outside the territorial waters of any nation" How do we then get round that?? Thanks again for the reply.

[PlanB]

Re: Council Tax

her mum then lived on her own. My partner sold her house and moved abroad to work on a private yacht, which she still does full time. She decided to use her mums address for her mail to be sent to. her mums sends her mail, if it's important, to her wherever she is in the world. The council have now written to her mum and said she must pay full CT as her daughter lives there....which clearly she does not. her mum has been asked to pay back tax to 2008 (she is getting a 25% discount as she lives alone).

This is really straightforward. Her Mum is living alone and is fully entitled to the Single Person Discount. She should make an Appeal to the Valuation Tribunal once she has been given a Decision by her local authority. Here's a link to how to make an online Appeal. In the meantime you'll need to line up some evidence and case law to prove that her Mum lives alone not that her daughter is living on the High Seas (the council have got the dynamics wrong). A good starting point is photographs of the property showing her daughter's absence (if you follow me )

http://www.valuationtribunal.gov.uk/A1Form.aspx

I must say I do find the idea of living a life on the ocean wave rather appealing. I might give it a go :bounce:

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

PlanB...I too felt it was quite clear, as in, because you have your mail posted to your mums address she should not be charged to CT. The 'High Seas' are not all they are cracked out to be. However living on someone's luxury yacht is! The photographs could cause issues...she moved out of her (my partner) house when she joined the yacht and you live in a small cabin on a yacht so most of her old house got dumped in her mum's house....also her sister has most of her old things there still and she moved out 4 years ago and has her own house...minus lot's of stuff...these are girls we are talking about with mountains of 'stuff'....and mum has her own 'mountain'....!! Thanks for the reply, most helpful.

[Eloise01]

Re: Council Tax

PlanB...I too felt it was quite clear, as in, because you have your mail posted to your mums address she should not be charged to CT. The 'High Seas' are not all they are cracked out to be. However living on someone's luxury yacht is! The photographs could cause issues...she moved out of her (my partner) house when she joined the yacht and you live in a small cabin on a yacht so most of her old house got dumped in her mum's house....also her sister has most of her old things there still and she moved out 4 years ago and has her own house...minus lot's of stuff...these are girls we are talking about with mountains of 'stuff'....and mum has her own 'mountain'....!! Thanks for the reply, most helpful.

I'm not really going to be able to contribute very much because this isn't my area of expertise (finding law is though!) but when I was reading up on the subject while looking for the case law, another of the exceptions was "where are possessions?" - so if her possessions or a number of her possessions are at mum's, that is another "nail in the coffin", so perhaps this wouldn't be something to mention too much?

[Awol]

Re: Council Tax

Eloise01....point taken! By the way have you had any further luck re the law or regs pertaining to their view?

[PlanB]

Re: Council Tax

I too felt it was quite clear, as in, because you have your mail posted to your mums address she should not be charged to CT. The 'High Seas' are not all they are cracked out to be. However living on someone's luxury yacht is! The photographs could cause issues...she moved out of her (my partner) house when she joined the yacht and you live in a small cabin on a yacht so most of her old house got dumped in her mum's house....also her sister has most of her old things there still and she moved out 4 years ago and has her own house...minus lot's of stuff...these are girls we are talking about with mountains of 'stuff'....and mum has her own 'mountain'....!!

My daughter doesn't live with her shoe bank either

I did have a similar problem recently when I refused to grass up her real whereabouts to Camden Council to prove she wasn't living with me. I insisted on a council tax inspector visiting my home and forced him to look under the bed etc for signs of her *organic* occupation. I assume that your partner isn't on the electoral roll at the property as further proof. Get a council inspector round to add to your evidence. Local authorities have targets to meet to reduce fraud so these departments sometimes make assumptions to justify their existence. I won my appeal but only after they tracked her down through the Experian database which showed her bank account elsewhere :spy: Your partner should set up a Royal Mail P.O. Box for her letters to show disassociation.

It seems we are not alone in suffering from these stupid allegations:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011...erson-discount